Cut and Paste drummers... Venting...

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If you tune your drums properly with proper heads and strike them properly and use the right mics in the right room with the right engineer, they will sound good, big or small.


Fire the drummer. Hire somebody who will take your music to another level, not somebody you have to fight with to share your vision.
 
ya, but you can get away with cheap smaller drums easyer than cheap bigger drums, wich the exception of a kick.
 
For the record...

I'm originally a drummer, not an engineer... so I've recorded a record without knowing anything about the actual recording process in the past. To answer your questions -

As far as tom size go, a lot of that has to do with the opinion on style. Some rock, fusion, etc. really requires that open, full sound, whereas it seems more metal bands like their toms a lot drier and "boxier", so to speak. Vote: tie. Without hearing that big tom, I got nothing to say.

On playing to a scratch track: yes, you can count measures... but so much of playing in a band is feeding off of others, and many drummers have a hard time "feeding" off of a metronome. I like the suggestion of recording a couple scratch tracks to a click so the scratches are in good time - maybe that'll help him out. Vote: one for the drummer dude.

On playing to a metronome: I'm with you all the way. Unless your drummer is a seasoned "god" of a drummer, he ain't gonna play in time the whole song. Just doesn't happen. You need a click to make it sound professional. Now, maybe you should try actually making the click a beat instead of a metronome? You know, use sampled drums or something to make a beat that's easier to work with. Still, the vote: one for you.

On "cutting and pasting": ha! One of THE most noticeable things I've heard in mixes is cut and paste drums. Unless there's a good, defined break in the drumming during the song, I believe that they should play the song the WHOLE WAY THROUGH. It might take you a few tries, but cutting and pasting drums is a pain and never sounds quite right. Vote: 4 for you!

So, I agree with you. You might be able to slack on the floor tom issue, and I think it's a good idea to give him scratch tracks, but on the rest? Kick his butt, and tell him I said to.
 
sepsis311 said:
It's my expirience that larger toms sound like cardboard, and can ruin a mix.
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Then someone is doing something wrong. Either you can't mix, or you can't tune the drums.

He decided that my 14" floor tom isnt big enough.....
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He's right. You guys are playing Metal, not Jazz or Fusion.

...he wants to bring his 18 for "extra low end." Ughhh... I explained to him smaller toms sound better... blah blah blah. "Nah man, i want the extra low end." Fine, i let him use his floor tom......
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If you're playing Fusion or jazz then smaller toms are cool but for rock or metal they just don't cut it.

Using his floor tom against my recommendation ruins the mix. It sounds like a damn cardboard box...
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Then you need to learn how to mix and tune. We've recorded using 16" and 18" floor toms and they've always sounded good. We've also used a 10x14 rack tom that sounded great as well. We recorded with smaller toms for a couple of songs and they also sounded good. Nothing sounded like a cardboard box. By the way, the larger drums will be louder then the smaller drums if they're tuned to the same pitch because they'll resonate more.

When you play live, you can never depend on the sound guy to do his job so you'd better make sure you can be heard. I've seen rock shows where the kit isn't mic'd and the drummer is using Fusion size drum (10 12 14 and a 20 kick small cymbals) and you can hardly hear the drummer. I've also seen at the same show, a drummer using a 13 16 22 set up and you could hear him better. Even when you're mic'd, the smaller floor toms don't cut it for rock, period. Look at Motorhead. Mickey D uses 16" and 18" floor toms. I wouldn't expect less.
 
sepsis311 said:
So, during the writting of one of our songs a few months ago, i said, yo learn this rythm, i want the kicks to follow, it doesnt sound like they do. He said, "dude it fits... just cause im not following every kick, that doesnt mean its not right." I said, "just cause your playing at the same tempo as me, it doesnt mean we're playing the same song." So he decided to ignore me. So we went to record this song, and hes playing to it, and stops. I say, whats wrong? He tells me, "i didnt know you were playing that. It doesnt sound right with what im doing." at this point, im so angry i say, "just play the damn song and take out the kick wherever it doesnt fit. I tried to explain this to you when we wrote it, but instead you said, "dude it fits""
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this is why every band i was in did a preproduction demo. we would set up two mics in the room and record everything live. the recording was used for two things: to work out our parts on our own time, and to give everyone a chance to hear the song from a different perspective. i was really surprised to hear how a lot of my parts did not even belong in the song to begin with. after a while, everyone began constructing their parts as a section of a song, rather than "what hip lick can i fit into this part".

as far as scratch tracks go, i never use them. i practice the song to the point where i can sing it in my head along with a metronome and the performance becomes second nature. i also write out a chart with the arrangement so i have something to follow along visually as well.
 
jonnyc said:
Let any musician you record use what they want. They get the sound they think they want and they can't blame you or your equipment if the recording doesn't cut it.
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Oh but will they ever try to do that! Even if you told them beforehand, they're not going to want to admit that they are at fault. It's automatically the engineer's problem.
 
i know many drummers who are used to play pretty fast may have problems playing slower songs, because it leaves too much space between beats or something. and maybe it helps if you record the songs more live, with the hole band together, i think its easier to keep it together that way. and one more thing maybe you should get better at communicating with eachother so that both of you understand eachothers views and ideas or something.. it can cut down time spent arguing or just evil stares at eachother. the singer in my band is a total dictator and pretty much ignores all my ideas, probably because im just the drummer and he is the "leader" or something. its hard to deal with people like that, but until i find a new band its good practice i guess. wow im a bit bored right now im just writing away.. hey wait a minute this aint my journal!!! well anyway queens of the stone age is really great, the songs for the deaf album with dave grohl on drums is awsome!!!!
 
cobradenim said:
Then someone is doing something wrong. Either you can't mix, or you can't tune the drums.


He's right. You guys are playing Metal, not Jazz or Fusion.


If you're playing Fusion or jazz then smaller toms are cool but for rock or metal they just don't cut it.

Then you need to learn how to mix and tune. We've recorded using 16" and 18" floor toms and they've always sounded good. We've also used a 10x14 rack tom that sounded great as well. We recorded with smaller toms for a couple of songs and they also sounded good. Nothing sounded like a cardboard box. By the way, the larger drums will be louder then the smaller drums if they're tuned to the same pitch because they'll resonate more.

When you play live, you can never depend on the sound guy to do his job so you'd better make sure you can be heard. I've seen rock shows where the kit isn't mic'd and the drummer is using Fusion size drum (10 12 14 and a 20 kick small cymbals) and you can hardly hear the drummer. I've also seen at the same show, a drummer using a 13 16 22 set up and you could hear him better. Even when you're mic'd, the smaller floor toms don't cut it for rock, period. Look at Motorhead. Mickey D uses 16" and 18" floor toms. I wouldn't expect less.
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I can mix, but I'm "not allowed" to tune his drums, he does that himself, cause he tunes them for "extra low end." And I wanted to use my floor tom because it's punchy and has tone, and the last time we recorded it, everyone loved it. His floor tom just sounds like a cardboard box (i wasnt just referring to the mix, sorry for not clarifying that).

As far as big drums, I'm a huge metal fan, and I know what large floor toms are supposed to sound like, and beleive me, his sounds nothing like the nice floor tom's i've heard.
 
sepsis311 said:
I can mix, but I'm "not allowed" to tune his drums, he does that himself, cause he tunes them for "extra low end." And I wanted to use my floor tom because it's punchy and has tone, and the last time we recorded it, everyone loved it. His floor tom just sounds like a cardboard box (i wasnt just referring to the mix, sorry for not clarifying that).

As far as big drums, I'm a huge metal fan, and I know what large floor toms are supposed to sound like, and beleive me, his sounds nothing like the nice floor tom's i've heard.
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So he doesn't know how to tune, either. I used to do that low tuning thing ages ago. And then I learned how to actually listen to the sounds the drums were making. You sure have an uphill battle here.
 
sepsis311 said:
I can mix, but I'm "not allowed" to tune his drums, he does that himself, cause he tunes them for "extra low end." And I wanted to use my floor tom because it's punchy and has tone, and the last time we recorded it, everyone loved it. His floor tom just sounds like a cardboard box (i wasnt just referring to the mix, sorry for not clarifying that).

As far as big drums, I'm a huge metal fan, and I know what large floor toms are supposed to sound like, and beleive me, his sounds nothing like the nice floor tom's i've heard.
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Ahhh, he's one of those drummers who can't tune. Nothing is more annoying than a drum kit that sounds like shit. I know guys like that who think they have to tune everything "low" and the drums have no tone whatsoever. Especially the snare!! You gotta have a good snare sound IMO. They've all gotta cut through the mix.

You guy's should fire him. He sounds like he's worthless. Drummers need to play for the song, no more and no less. It sounds like your drummer doesn't listen and doesn't care. Hopefully you'll find someone else that will be a better fit.
 
I have dealt with musicians that couldn't quite cut it. This past winter I had to tell a trumpet player that the group wasn't interested in playing with him anymore. Two gigs in a row, he just laid down completely by the middle of second set (This group played three 1-hour sets of jazz/instrumental). His timing was questionable, he didn't play in key often, and it was visible (from crowd's reaction) that his playing was more abrasive than expressive. He claimed he was working/studying at home, but honestly there was just no improvement when we would rehearse.

On the flip side, I'm a guitar player. My timing isn't impeccable or flawless. I have been in situations where I've been off, or I've been too loud (common affliction amongst six stringers). I've been the one to hit a wrong chord or play the wrong note where there was no way to hide it whatsoever. I take criticism and advice from my fellow musicians (I'd be a fool NOT to). I work in a Top 40 group where I'm the only guitar player and I listen to my fellow musicians when it comes to what's going on and what can be done to create a better performance. Often, the drummer I work with comes up with some of THE most professional advice (years on the road with Shirley Murdock and Brenda Clark).

Your drummer should be listening to you, period.


*Program a drum machine or find what you need with Drummer From Hell.
*Record the song using either method.
*Show the drummer it CAN be done.
*If he sees that he has room for improvement, offer any help you can in helping him acheive this goal. Solid musicians that want to do the job are better than gifted/talented people with social issues.
*If he argues/throws a fit/otherwise disagrees, you seriously need to consider finding someone else. He will be nothing but counterproductive and may even hold the good recording you made with the drum machine or drum software against you.


It's all about the music.
 
what gets me (and i see this a lot!) are drummers that tune thier snare way to HIGH, low just dosn't seem to be the problem with bad snare tuneing.

everyone just seems to crank them down.
 
Jesus Christ!

Recording a scratch guitar track for a drummer is just common courtesy! Its hard to remember exactly how long every song part is without following a melodic instrument. Drums can be dynamic in intensity sure, but you don't hear the chord changes and leading tones that move you to the next part of a song. If I were a drummer I would definitely ask for a scratch track and a metronome track everytime, unless of course you have tempo changes then a scratch track alone would do. If you have the drums alone first with just a metronome track you may finish up, think you've gotten a good cut, but then realize that you've skipped four bars or something like that.

My feeling is the best way to record is to have the instrument that drives the song record a scratch track first. Then have the drums record. Then record all the other instruments after the drums.
 
Get a new drummer. Seriously.

Why couldnt you just play along with the click in headphones? Being a drummer and a guitarist.. you fucking need it. I think you're being ridiculous by getting annoyed that he asked for a sctratch track. If he can't play to a metronome.. then he can't play to one. Have him record everything so that you think its fine.

I think you're being a bit ridiculous about the situation.. but I also think that your drummer sounds like he doesn't know shit.
 
Why not just direct in everyone for starters. For bands that can only record together I'll just put the bass player and guitar player direct in and let them go. Then after the drums are tight I delete the guitars and bass and rerecord them, works everytime. Also how is your practice room set up, your drummer really needs to be able to hear everything you do remember its way noisey behind those things. I actually set up the cabinets just to the outside of my hihats yeah its loud as hell but you can hear every single note. If none of this works then yeah he sucks get a new drummer.
 
xskhaos said:
Recording a scratch guitar track for a drummer is just common courtesy! Its hard to remember exactly how long every song part is without following a melodic instrument. Drums can be dynamic in intensity sure, but you don't hear the chord changes and leading tones that move you to the next part of a song. If I were a drummer I would definitely ask for a scratch track and a metronome track everytime, unless of course you have tempo changes then a scratch track alone would do. If you have the drums alone first with just a metronome track you may finish up, think you've gotten a good cut, but then realize that you've skipped four bars or something like that.

My feeling is the best way to record is to have the instrument that drives the song record a scratch track first. Then have the drums record. Then record all the other instruments after the drums.
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I agree. I've drummed on 3 cd's with a big name producer on one. We used a scratch track. I played to the click but if the guy is having problems find a way to work with him. As a producer its your job to get the best performance out of the musicians, not embarrass him by showing him "the right way" to do it in front of your bandmates. Sounds to me like you guys have a personality conflict. IMO no matter what this guy does you aren't happy with it.
 
I would say its more like...

Recording is done at my house with logic, the kit all mic'd up and all. It's just me and him. We aren't paying for any studio time or anything like that. But for once i would just like to get a solid correct version of each of the songs.

I understand now scratch tracks isnt asking too much... but it's too much to ask to have him go with my recommendations for the floor tom and play to a click track correctly?
 
Maybe he doesnt like the sound of your floortom. After all its his drumming, it should be his sound. People will attach his name to the drums not yours. Think about it, everyone says how much they hate LARS snare sound on Monster. Nobody says they hate Bob Rock's snare sound.
 
Honestly help him fix the floor tom, he doesn't tell you your guitar sucks to change it, or you amp sucks to replace it. I think its really rude to tell someone to use the set up that YOU prefer. If he wants to play with an 18 inch floor then get the right heads eq the m'fer the right way and deal or get a new drummer, but you know what you'll go thru drummers really fast if you keep telling them what they should and shouldn't play with. I can tell a drummer his drum sucks and the worst that happens is they don't record with me again. If it sounds like a cardboard box(which I can't even imagine) then replace the heads, retune it, do what you can I'm sure someone somewhere on this planet used the same drum once to record with and it did a fine job. Honestly if I was your drummer and saw this post I'd never play with you again.
 
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