Critical and Analytical Listening

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I'd agree with that. I actually enjoy washing up, for the very reason that it gives me time to think, without worrying that I should be doing something else. Your 4-point breakdown of how we listen to our recordings makes a lot of sense.

If I can get my arse in gear I'll post my CLEF for some commercial recordings. I've been busy this week - I have a college assignment to reproduce "Paperback Writer" as accurately as possible, with just my knowledge/skill base, and the college studios at my disposal... :eek:
 
I really like your cataloging by general listening function. It's jet another way to look at it and get one thinking about how to recognize and parse the details of what we're listening to. What's interesting to me about that is that although it's rather different than Tom's CLEF and my categorization perspectives coming up, none of these perspectives clashes, and they all contribute together to an understanding of what critical listening actually listens for and why.

My categorisation, the different type of listening needed, and the main remediating tools in those categories, was done without reference to CLEF.

However, I've done a quick comparison, and it seems to me that there is a broad, though not exact, similarity:

1 Frequency balance: diagnostic listening
2 Soundstage imaging: discernment listening
3 Dyamics and distortion: discriminatory listening
4 Use of effects: creative listening

However, I think further consideration could be given to CLEF sub-categories. For example, 1.3 (Sibilance/plosives) could easily be slotted into 3 (Dynamics and distortion). 3.3 (Instrument and vocal levels . . .) could easily go to 2 (Sound stage imaging), but without 'pumping' which should stay in 3.

On reflection, I am not sure that I've picked the best words to describe the different types of listening.
 
I have the track chosen by the class available for download at:

http://www.masteringhouse.com/demos/hrforum/

I removed the name of the owner and left it his option to remain anonymous. If not, he is free to post.

I would like to get opinions on the mix using CLEF or any rating system that you feel describes what you are hearing in this mix, both good and bad. CLEF is just a point of reference and isn't gospel by any means. From the thread we can see that everyone hears things a bit differently, CLEF is mainly terms that we can all use to help describe this in a somewhat consistent manner rather than terms like "fuzzy", "woofy", or other ambiguous terms.

Also describe ways in which you might fix issues in the mix if you feel there areas that you want corrected. The basic idea here is to set a goal for the sound of the track, and ways to go about achieving it.

Thanks for all of the feedback so far!

Best,
Tom
 
I just d/l'd the song and gave it a cursory listen. I'll be back with my personal detailed CLEF plus analysis a bit later when I have a bit more time, but just to keep this thread fresh and bumped, initially I want to just shoot off a quick $0.02...

I like the song and the arrangement, and I think the mix serves it pretty well. I also think that Tom picked a good subject for this exercise because there is a lot there in that song and that mix to consider and it should serve well for CLEF analysis.

It's a pretty good mix, and like I say, it does serve the song and arrangement well. To my ears there is still just a bit of "rawness" to the sound of of some of the individual tracks in that, while they fit together pretty well, they still sound "individual" and a little unpolished (in a mix way, not a mastering way.) It's kind of like the floor tiles have been laid and they fit nicely, but the grout connecting them together has not yet been laid, and the tiles themselves not individually polished completely. (Mastering, just to make the distinction. would the the polyurethane coat that goes on after all that has been done :D)

One of the reasons for this (but not the only one) is a bit of a depth issue for me in that - suprise suprise, don't have a heart attack ;) - there's a bit too much depth for my personal tastes. Or more specifically, that the tracks sound layered in very isolated layers, with the drums on the bottom, the gits in the middle layer and the vocals laying on top. You all know that I love dynamics, and I'm glad to have them in this mix, but there's not a lot gluing or grouting the tracks together. I'd like to hear a bit more texture in the form of individual dynamics inside each track so that there is some overlap and interconnectedness between the tracks. It's like a raw lasagna where the layers and the tastes are still separated, vs. the cooked one where the layers tend to melt together a bit better.

Again, this is not a complaint. I think it's a mix job done fairly well overall so far. I just think it's a bit incomplete, with perhaps a little too much left and expected for the mastering to handle.

Like I say, I'll be back later with my CLEF, and a bit more detailed of a personal analysis; I just wanted to get those broad strokes out there so this thread doesn't get too stale.

G.
 
Drums has the "depth" -in a bad way- probably micing/room issues.
Overall volume is low compared with voice and guitars.Snare lacks punch and some highs.
Solid groove -this is a positive point in the song - good Drum/Bass Guitar job.
Vox and guitars performance is good, but lacks stage and depth - I hear "separeted tracks instead a mix", and considering the drums, is the "raw lasagna" Glen talked about.

Guitars are too hot in the 2/3 k range,fighting with voice.

Bridge at:50 could be a great point to the song grows up (another instrument,some effect/panning...) but nothing happens.Vox louder than "A" part.

Overall, nice song and performance with some mixing issues.

Hope it helps;sorry for not use the CLEF...

Ciro
 
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I have the track chosen by the class available for download at:

http://www.masteringhouse.com/demos/hrforum/

I've had several listens to the track, which I enjoyed. My initial thoughts follow:

Fashions come and go . . . in the eighties we had oceans of reverb, but the trend in more recent years has been for drier mixes. In the case of the evaluation track I hear guitars so dry, so bright and brassy, that they form a wall between me and the rest of the song; a wall that makes it hard to get drawn into it . . . instead I kind of bounce along the surface. Though the guitars are played well, and do interesting things, their dominating presence becomes tedious and I want to say, "let someone else have a go now". This is not helped by the arpeggio thing that comes in later and which to me seems a bit out of tune.

The kit, with its roomy sound, starts off with a reasonable presence, but as the song progresses, disappears more and more into the background. The extremes of the sound spectrum that a kit can add life to are therefore not taken advantage of. It takes on a vague, 'uncrisp' sound that sits unhappily with the clang of the guitars.

The vocals have been recorded well, and the Beatles-type melodic licks and harmonies are nicely rendered. But they too tend to get pushed back into the song, and their strength is not utilised as much as it could have been. Again, this could be a fashion thing, but my preference is to have stronger, upfront vocals. I notice variations in vocal levels. The 'two hearts' start of the chorus is right there, but other times they slip away more into the background

Spatially, there is a commanding left-right occupation by the guitars, leaving the centre for kit, bass, and vocals. This is a common approach, and not an unreasonable way of doing things. At times a guitar slips into the cente, filling that harmonic gap in the soundscape. For the most part, the mix gives me the sense of a 'V', where the guitars are at the two wings of the 'V' with the rest of the band sitting in the well, leaving centre stage relatively empty. The start of the chorus, though, is where I hear a more satisfying inverted V, with vocals using more of the centre stage.

As far as CLEF goes, my general thoughts are:

1 Frequency balance: all pretty good through 1.1 to 1.3
2 Sound stage Imaging: not as strong. 2.1 is okay, 2.2 is less okay. I didn't check 2.3 (mono compatibility), and 2.4 (stability . . .) is a bit hazardous with the positioning of the vocals.
3 Dynamics and distortion: All generally fine. Perhaps the lack of kit presence later on in the song robbed it of its transients. I notice that the avergae RMS was around -17, which I feel is a reasonable level, and I was certainly pleased to hear some dynamic movement in levels (though I could've done with more).
4 Use of effects: I felt a discontinuity between three elements; guitars, kit and vocals, and they didn't gel into a unified whole the way I would have liked to have heard.
5 Performance and production: Part of this relates to all the other points. However, the performance was fine (and I acutally really like the song). Timing was good and tight, and the sing and playing were all highly competent. I mentioned earlier an arpeggio that seemed a bit out of tune, and maybe the vocals sound a bit tired, but that's about it.

Overall, not a bad mix, in my view, but one that could be improved. I would like to see the guitars pushed back a bit, the kit and vocals brought forward, and a reverb applied that gives the piece greater unity.
 
Great comments, I DL'd the song and enjoyed listening while reading all your evaluations.
I agree that the mix sounds quite flat and, as Glen says (in the linked CLEF) it's not fatiguing as such, it's just not particularly inspiring.
That said, to my ears this sound like a very "professional" mix, whatever that word means. That may be an indicator that my ears are pretty underdeveloped, being that I can't really hear the separation you guys are talking about, until I listen closely.
I really like the drum sound on this track, although I agree that they could be much more up-front. Having the drums set back like that reminds me of Definitely Maybe-era Oasis.
I didn't use CLEF because, as I said, my ears suck; I'm mainly here to read and learn, hopefully to develop them.

Just my $0.02. Elton
 
Very nice!

Not sure why you had mono compatiblity as N/A though. For my money this is always important and is a way of checking for phasing problems in a stereo mix.

I reckon no comments were applicable?
Damn, I knew someone was going to call me on that one.:o

I really don't know that I want to sidetrack (sidechain? sidebar?) the thread on this point at this point. Let's just say that I'd like to see the mix play out a bit further on the other CLEF points before I throw the mono test at it.

Maybe that should have been my comment.

Elton Bear said:
I didn't use CLEF because, as I said, my ears suck; I'm mainly here to read and learn, hopefully to develop them.
I think part of this exercise, Elton, is to use the CLEF as a way to develop your ears further. The CLEF in this context is as much, if not more, of an instruction and training guide for the tester as it is for the subject of the test.

In that context, there are no right answers other than simply answering what you think and what you hear when listing to the mix under the focus of each of the points in the CLEF. What I - or Zed or Ciro or Tom or anyone else - have to say is simply what we hear and what our impressions are. That doesn't make us "right" - there is always going to be at least some degree of subjectivity in at least some of the answers (things like appropriateness, creative uses, etc. there is not necessarily one right answer for) - just honest.

You don't have to publish your answers if you don't wish to, but I might recommend filling it out for yourself, at least. It's useful way to practice listening for such details. Listen to others all you want, and that's fine, but the best way to get your ears trained is to actually go through the training process.

G.
 
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You don't have to publish your answers if you don't wish to, but I might recommend filling it out for yourself, at least. It's useful way to practice listening for such details...
G.

I've been filling a few in actually, I've found the breakdown of different aspects of production really useful in completing some of the critical listening assignments I've had at college. That's more about instrumentation and composition, but they ask for a short paragraph on production so I've been using it as a chance to get my teeth stuck in.
 
The results are in from the class. I will be posting the results (CLEF, master, etc.) which both I and my second engineer feel are the top 5. Will be ready within the week.

Stay tuned ...

Best,
Tom
 
How do you guys check for the "mono capability"? I know you can open the file in a DAW and mixdown to mono, but is there an easy way to do this?
 
How do you guys check for the "mono capability"? I know you can open the file in a DAW and mixdown to mono, but is there an easy way to do this?

I use the mono switch on my monitor controller, many boards have this option as well and are there for this purpose. I'm sure there are also plugs that can do this, anyone?
 
I'm starting this thread for the purpose of general discussion on how we listen, evaluate, and develop better skills for analyzing mixes and mastered tracks.

Often many of the questions on this forum revolve around what kind of gear can I buy, what settings do I use, etc. to make my mixes sound pro. The biggest investment (IMHO) that any budding engineer can make is to spend as much time as possible developing their ear. A pro is able to determine even before moving the first knob what they want to change (if anything) and a procedure for achieving it even though this may change along the way. It's my hope that this thread may help to start some of the less experienced members of the forum moving in that direction, and the experienced to possibly think of things from a new angle. Some of the biggest lessons I've learned are from the "students" that I have taught.

Anyway, to start the discussion, what differentiates a good mix from a bad one?

without reading all these htreads, Im at work, a good mix does not inhibit the music coming through
 
I wish I could contribute more to this thread than a bump, but... [bump!]
 
I think it might be a lost cause, it seems there's only a few of us who are interested in developing our ears to become better engineers.

What a disappointing state of affairs.:(
 
It's maybe more disappointing than amazing how even the most active of threads dries up as soon as it calls for someone to actually *do* something and not just be spoon-fed answers from a jar.

But also in a bit of fairness, the ball is kind of in Tom's court right now as those of us that are still here are waiting on him to publish the results. I know from my website how hard it can be to get this volunteer stuff out on a promised schedule - something less voluntary always seems to crop up to delay things, so seeing as how it's been about a week since Tom sad he'd have the stuff published within a week, I don't think the thread is actually all that stale yet.

In the meantime, antichef, you *could* contribute. Have you tried the CLEF analysis of the posted song track yet yourself? It would be nice to have another perspective to look at. (If you already have this earlier in the thread and I missed it, my apologies.)

G.
 
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