condenser mics for stereo micing of ensemble

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analogfreak

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I would like to improve my current process of stereo micing of a small jazz ensemble or chamber group, recorded "live to analog 2-track" in a small auditorium or coffee house, using condenser mics in a coincident or near-coincident pattern. I currently use Shure BG4.1 (the old version of the current PG81XLR), and these are a little too lean in the bottom end to adequately pick up the frequencies below about 80-100 Hz. But I like the rest of what I hear with these.

Thus far, I am considering the following microphones for the upgrade:
Audio Technica ATM33a
Audio Technica AT4041
Crown CM-700

From what I've read and the spec's I've seen, the Crown is probably not sensitive enough for this. The ATM33a seems more sensitive, and flat down to 30-40 Hz. The AT4041, yet more sensitive and flat to 20 Hz, is a little more money than I want to spend, but would do so if it's dramatically better than the ATM33a. I'm trying to keep it around $430 or less, if possible, for the pair. Any thoughts on these mic's or perhaps some others in that price range?

Thanks.
Michael
 
Oktava MC012. And it has interchangeable capsules for omni, card, and hypercard.

Or put all your $ into a single higher quality omni and go mono until you save for a second one. No wait, you said you're recording in coffee houses, so omni or, later, a spaced pair probably won't work well for you.

I guess I'd go a little higher if it were me. You're not far under the price range where you'll notice a really big difference in the sound.

Just my 2c,
Tim
 
I do a bit of 2 track live recording with a pair of 33a's and am very happy with the results, it's not super critical and most of the time the placement is just what looks like the best spot whare they won't get crushed (many different rooms), or be in the way of the audience, but even in these very loose conditions the recording usually sounds very much like it did in the room (with some very basic clean up)
i think they are good for 2 track recording but i've never heard the sound you are getting.
 
I'd really look into the Shure VP88! I used it to record many ensembles back in college. It records in the MS config. Really revealing but not really cheap.
 
Hey, thanks for the info so far. . .

By the way, the initial inspiration for this are the amazing jazz MA Recordings (www.marecordings.com), all done with a pair of mics to 96K digital 2-track. A couple of questions/points:

giraffe, you have me quite intrigued by the ATM33a's!

qbert1, I already thought of a stereo mic, and it certainly would be the easiest to set up (either the Shure you mention or the Rode stereo mic). It would not be my top choice, given that the angle is of the elements is fixed. There are so many configurations out there to work with: coincident, near-coincident (several), and separated pair.

Timothy. . .when you say save up and "go a little higher," would you be referring to the AT 4041, or something else (Shure SM81, etc.)?

Thanks again!!
Michael Yoder
 
i suggest the Rode NT5s
I haven't used them on an entire ensemble, but they sound really good on piano and OHs....so ummm, i guess that really doesn't help you
take a look at 'em though
:cool:
 
analogfreak said:
I would like to improve my current process of stereo micing of a small jazz ensemble or chamber group, recorded "live to analog 2-track" in a small auditorium or coffee house, using condenser mics in a coincident or near-coincident pattern. I currently use Shure BG4.1 (the old version of the current PG81XLR), and these are a little too lean in the bottom end to adequately pick up the frequencies below about 80-100 Hz. But I like the rest of what I hear with these.

Thus far, I am considering the following microphones for the upgrade:
Audio Technica ATM33a
Audio Technica AT4041
Crown CM-700

From what I've read and the spec's I've seen, the Crown is probably not sensitive enough for this. The ATM33a seems more sensitive, and flat down to 30-40 Hz. The AT4041, yet more sensitive and flat to 20 Hz, is a little more money than I want to spend, but would do so if it's dramatically better than the ATM33a. I'm trying to keep it around $430 or less, if possible, for the pair. Any thoughts on these mic's or perhaps some others in that price range?

Thanks.
Michael
Click to expand...
I've done many similar type recordings... I recommend a pair of Shure SM81's.
 
Timothy. . .when you say save up and "go a little higher," would you be referring to the AT 4041, or something else (Shure SM81, etc.)?
Click to expand...

At your $ target, an Oktava MC012 pair at the Soundroom http://sound-room.com/customer/product.php?productid=18&cat=3&page=1 is $5 under your budget and would be a big improvement in sound over your BG4.1s. If you do get interested in those, it's worth doing a little Googling to find out why you might want to avoid other distributors of the Oktava.

Going up to $700 a pair, there's theShure SM81

Going up to $860 a pair, there's the Josephson C42

You might consider renting different mic's so you can hear them, or finding a dealer who'll send you two types to try and you send back the one you least like.
 
I see what you mean about the Oktava MC012. . .it appears to have very good spec's indeed, and I like the fact that it's very, very light. That would help with quick setup, and getting the pair in the right position: coincident, near coincident (90 degrees, 110 degrees, etc.). I also saw all the references to the "quality control" problems, most of which seem to have to do with the variation between the mic's in a matched pair. The price is right.

However, I did stumble on what appears to be a very good deal for the AT4041's at 8th Street Music: $390 for the pair!! I have not dealt with them before, but have come across their web site a few times when googling various items. Yesterday I phoned a drummer I know after I remembered that he has been acquiring a lot of mic's lately for the studio he is setting up. He uses a pair of the AT4041
for drum overheads and absolutely loves them. Also, "Sound-on-Sound" gave it quite a glowing review.

I'm still looking into this, but at this point, I think the AT4041 is the one to beat. They are flat down to 20 Hz and have among the higher sensitivity spec's of all the mic's I am considering. That would come in handy for recording a small group when the passages are lower in volume. They are almost as light and small as the Oktava.

Does anyone have experience with the AT4041?

Thanks again for all the feedback (no pun intended) thus far.

Cheers,
Michael Yoder
 
. . . .On the other hand. . .

I just realised the Rode NT5 matched pair seems to have very good sensitivity specs and frequency curve, and are much smaller and lighter than I had expected. Plus there are some good internet reviews. . .one of which says they're good for live 2-track recording of the type I want to do.

And I found them on sale for $354 incl. shipping.

Hmm. . . :confused:
 
Personally, I wouldn't buy a mic without hearing it. Pro audio rental places are a great resource for trying mics, and it's cheap.

A few years ago I was looking for a good stereo pair and rented a couple Neumann KM184s for a weekend. Didn't cost much and saved me from getting the wrong mics for my taste, as I ended up buying a different type that I auditioned soon after.

I also don't put too much stock in spec sheets. Judging from the mic's in my cabinet, except for showing low end rollof, or that it has a wide frequency peak or dip, they don't tell much about the actual sound quality of the mic in ways that matter more to me. Things like: Do the mic's handle transients without putting a hard edge on them? Is the low end rich without being flabby? Are the lower mids clear or muddy? Do they sound good off-axis? (critical for stereo use)

Just my 2c,
Tim
 
Thumbs up on the AT4041's. Used them recently on violin and piano - came out better than anticipated. Better (less hypey) than NT5 IMHO, though I haven't used them side by side for a true AB.
 
what about some of the small condensers from Audio Technica. I have used AT 30/31 on a jazz-quintet, and it sounded clear. The price is 169$ per microphone, but I have seen them on Ebay for 139$ Also, most of the the AT3031 sound quite similar, so you dont need a matched pair. (I've read on homerecording that different sounding -mikes can be a problem with Octaca mk12)
http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/profiles/AT3031.html

I'm recording live-concertes and for that I use 2 AkG C541B, they seem to do the job, but I havent compared them to omni-microphones.
I have also tried Shure KSM 109, and I didnt like them. For some reason they distorted on the minidisc-player(might blame the md-player for this), and the sound was not that detailed.(I lost one of the ksm109, after that i used 1 shure ksm109 and 1 shure PG81 as stereo-microphones, not ideal but they sounded quite similar. Hovewer, I thought that the pg81 was more sensitive, when I looked at the level-indicator while recording, I noticed that the PG jumped up and down, while the Shure KSM109 was more stable.. I took this as a sign in favor of the PG81)
Sniixer
 
The Verdict. . .

I went with the Rode NT5. Unfortunately there are no local places that rent equipment for me to try out different mic's, and the local music store has so few to choose from. In the remote US-Mexico border region, I am pretty much forced to research things on the internet and TapeOp magazine, and make the best informed decision that I can, and keep my fingers crossed.

I found the NT5's for $300 at Rik's in Knoxville, Tennessee. Based on this thread, reviews all over the internet and in TapeOp, conversations with a couple of studio owners and with Rik's (who sell just about all the brands I was considering), it seems that all mic's have their own unique pluses, but in the general price range I was considering, all would probably do the job pretty well. So, I went with the Rode pair.

They arrived yesterday. The verdict: In a high-celing room with tile floor, using a single mic stand and Shure stereo mic adapter, I tried them out in coincident configuration and one near-coincident configuration (90 degrees, 17-18cm apart), to record a bass amp with a Fender bass, and a Tacoma acoustic bass guitar (ABG). The bass amp sounded great at about 2m away and at 3m away. Anything closer would have been too close. The Tacoma sounded great at 1 meter away, and pretty good at 1.5 m away, though the sound was not very full that far away. I also tried micing the Tacoma at .3 meters, which was absolutely stunning!!!

Contrary to what some reviewers said about the Rode NT5's response falling off above 14kHz, the sound was plenty bright, very open, and extremely detailed.

In conclusion, though I did not compare the different mic's, I am very happy with the sound of the NT5 compared to my Shure BG4.1's.

Thanks to all for adding to this thread.

Cheers,
Michael Yoder
ambient jazz duo
http://www.ambientjazzduo.8m.net
 
krs said:
Thumbs up on the AT4041's. Used them recently on violin and piano - came out better than anticipated. Better (less hypey) than NT5 IMHO, though I haven't used them side by side for a true AB.
Click to expand...


I have to second that! I have some exotics and the 4041 matched pair keeps up with them 3/4 of the way or more! I am talking about mikes costing up to 10 times what the 4041 costs Nueman 193, Soundelux 99 etc.... They are more real on the piano for the real piano sound and have great shimmer and air in the hight end without getting metalic! Gives a bad room a break and is great to EQ in post for fuller or softer sound as you like. I love these mikes, but I must warn you that they will not reject RFI if it is bad in your area!! That is why I went with the exotics. If the RFI (radio stations bleeding into the signal etc...) is a problem, then go with something that is better shielded. If not, I can not praise them enough!

Hope this helps.

PS. Mackie 1202 not the VLZ is a better sounding mixer by the way and will work great with them.
 
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