condenser for vocals?...not necessarily!!

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threshhold2

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i was thinking all the time that a good quality condenser mic is a must in my studio for vocal recording. so i bought a new AKG C414 XL2 for some 1000 $

no doubt this is a high end mic----but frustration went hand by hand with quality.

since we are talking here home studio, you probably guess that the isolation from noise coming from outside is not the best, and the acoustic conditions are far from perfect. This mic would pick up just about any smallest noise and it's sensitivity is amazing. Pretty soon i realized that it is almost impossible for me to use this mic, and i went back to my good old SHURE SM58 for vocals...and i was amazed at the results i acheived.(add a bit of EQ and reverb) :)

conclusion----it might work in a high-end-top-quality-proffessional recording studio, but not necessarily in your home-project studio!! :(
 
If you don't have a Shure SM-7b do a Google or Froogle search and get one. Get two. A Sennheiser MD-441 is another mic that is often great for vocals... certainly better than 99.98572% of the "Banjo Mart Chinese Specials" that are sold as "better than a Neumann for $0.10 on the dollar".

As always, YMMV... but seing that I often put up an SM-7b next to like $10-15,000 vocal mics... I might be onto something.

Peace.
 
threshhold2 said:
conclusion----it might work in a high-end-top-quality-proffessional recording studio, but not necessarily in your home-project studio!! :(
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An essential part to achieve the "professional quality" is the room.
The better the mic, better it will capture all the characteristics (good and bads) of a room.A room(or "studio") with lots of ressonances will sounds terrible, and a very good condenser will reproduce it.
For vocals, you can limit a small space and use gobos.
 
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threshhold2 said:
i was thinking all the time that a good quality condenser mic is a must in my studio for vocal recording. so i bought a new AKG C414 XL2 for some 1000 $

no doubt this is a high end mic----but frustration went hand by hand with quality.

since we are talking here home studio, you probably guess that the isolation from noise coming from outside is not the best, and the acoustic conditions are far from perfect. This mic would pick up just about any smallest noise and it's sensitivity is amazing. Pretty soon i realized that it is almost impossible for me to use this mic, and i went back to my good old SHURE SM58 for vocals...and i was amazed at the results i acheived.(add a bit of EQ and reverb) :)

conclusion----it might work in a high-end-top-quality-proffessional recording studio, but not necessarily in your home-project studio!! :(
Click to expand...

Nothing you're saying here is a revelation or anything. People have used dynamics and ribbons for years, even in the major studios. Condensers aren't a must, the right mic for the voice is.
 
I know exactly what you are saying. I am recording in an 11' X 11' X 8' untreated bedroom. I had a Rode NT1a and rented or borrowed some pretty expensive LDC mics and they all did a wonderful job of capturing flutter echo, my Corgis barking in the backyard, my cats meowing for food, the fridge in the kitchen, cars and trucks outside, etc. Plus, they didn't really sound the best on my particular voice. I got an RNP preamp which has plenty of gain and discovered that an SM57 with a pop screen into the RNP sounds great on my voice. The SM57 is good at rejecting the noise that the other mics were picking up.

Yes, I could treat the room, build a gobo, unplug the fridge, muzzle the dogs, etc.
But you know what, I like the 57 solution. It's simple and it works. The more I do this, the more I am starting to value simplicity. Basic tools that work every time you use them.

bilco
 
AKAIK there is no such thing as a mic that "reaches out" and picks up distant sounds relative to close ones. Read the Shure comments on mics on their website.
A good condenser might have more sensitivity and less noise when connected to a given pre but it will be sensitive to quiet sounds (ie; will not bury them so much in preamp noise) whether they are close to the mic or far away. The dynamic/pre combination might add more self noise which might help mask some of the unwanted sounds. But poorer noise specs is hardly the way to deal with unwanted room noises.

Apart from this I dont think an SM58 or any similar mic is going to deal with annoying background sounds any more or less than any other mic.
If other ways of cutting the noise arent possible the first call ways of reducing outside noise are using the unidirectional characteristics of the mic itself and close micing. If the noises are outside the spectrum of the vocal (eg: below 100hz) use a high pass filter. You lose nothing of the vocal and cut the annoying noise.


cheers Tim.
 
Tim Gillett said:
If the noises are outside the spectrum of the vocal (eg: below 100hz) use a high pass filter. You lose nothing of the vocal and cut the annoying noise.
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That would have to be one big ass cat to meow below 100hz!! :cool:
 
Mic's have "patterns" They have "purpose" I was in the middle of recording a BIG infomercial for a guy. Long story short is I was in the middle of moving studio back to my home. We were ready to record voiceover parts. My room is torn apart, no insulation/sound proofing. Lots of noise from upstairs. Packed away the U87 Neumann and slapped up a plain SM57.....done.
The right mic for the right job....Pattern!
 
I've been trying to figure out where the whole "condenser for vocals" thing has come from for years. SM7b's, RE20's, PR40's, 90% of the time, I'd wind up using a dynamic for vocals - No matter *what* the room sounds like.
 
Massive Master said:
I've been trying to figure out where the whole "condenser for vocals" thing has come from for years.
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Because people look at pictures and videos of the Whitney Houstons and Lyle Lovetts of this world with a $6000 Neumann hanging in front of them in the studio. People think they are using that mic because it's an LDC; they don't realize that instead they are using it because it's a $6000-quality microphone. The fact that it happens to be an LDC is almost incedental.

Then the manufacturers try and capitalize on that perception by making their cheapo mics look like a Neumann in the same way that virtually every midsize Japanese car steals styling points from Mercedes. "Hey, here's a mic that looks like and is the same type as that Neumann; I'll bet you it'll make me sound as good as Whitney Houston and Lyle Lovett. And it only costs 1/20th the price!"

P.T. Barnum is smiling in his grave.

G.
 
CIRO said:
Then, all cheap or all below $ 6.000 LDC sucks?
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I hope that is not what you really took form Glen's post. In no way did I see that as a point in his post, an insinuation, or even a logical interpretation. All I heard was that people see something and think it is there for the wrong reason. I do not think the engineers threw up the $6000 LDC because it was expensive, or because it was a LD condensor. I would imagine that they put that specific mic (whatever it happens to be in each circumstance) because it was the available mic that sounded the best. It just happens that often times in the larger studios the available mic that sounds the best happens to be a LD condensor, and happens to be very expensive. Typically this also means that it carries some sort of brand name also (ala Neumann, Telefunken etc...) because the cheaper manufacturers tend to make LD condensors that do not sound nearly as nice and the larger studios can afford those vintage and/or expensive mics.

If you see the picture though and run out and buy the first LD MXL mic you can find, you may be less than satisfied. It's not because LD condensors suck on vocals though, its because you were in a whole different set of circumstances and made an uninformed, uneducated and just flat out bad decision. It is important to remember that when looking at many of those pictures there are many things involved there that you may not be seeing or picking up on. They have better rooms, preamps, mics, cables, converters, monitors, budget, engineers, compressors, EQ's etc.... The right decision for them may be different than the right decision for you. But then 99% of the variables involved are also different.
 
For me ,I tend to use the Neumann U87's because people "like" to see a high end mic or piece of gear when you are charging them per hour. Particulary in a home studio environment. I agree, they see that mic all the time on tv and think " oh, this guys as the good stuff!"
 
Quite apart from the "wow" factor, the larger head grille creates some pleasing resonances in the mid-range that you won't get with other designs. There was a reason that Neumann chose that particular design for the U47. While the lower priced LDC companies may be copying that design to impress people, it does serve a specific purpose.
 
Agreed Harvey, yeah they DO sound nice..like the U87. I had a kid in the studio one time from music school, trumpit player. I started to place an sm57 up to his horn and he said,"what, I dont want to use that". Dont you have one of those good mic's?" ( he ment neumann). He just saw a common mic and made a judgment. I explained that I use the sm57 along with a KSM32 or a U87 to get a bit of the crispness of the horn instead of eq......at least it works for me. He was happy with his horn sound at the end of the session but he "heard with his eyes instead of his ears". As most people do.
 
xstatic said:
I hope that is not what you really took form Glen's post.
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Was a sarcastic, bad comment I did, this words don´t came from Glen´s mouth ...sorry, Glen.

Our coleague that opened the thread bought a mic and for some reason (probably strong street noises, poor or no treatment in the room), he give up and ended using a 58, that do the job very well, too.
And the myth remains, as he saids:

threshhold2 said:
conclusion----it might work in a high-end-top-quality-proffessional recording studio, but not necessarily in your home-project studio!! :(
Click to expand...
 
Yes, I get both "sides" of this. Some pros use dynamics and there's no rule that says a condensor is the best vocal mic for any vocal application.

But to say "it might work in a high-end-top-quality-proffessional recording studio, but not necessarily in your home-project studio!!" is a bit too much of a generalisation. It depends what you're up against in your home studio and what you've done to make the room as condusive to recording as posssible.
 
Elton John appears on the "Goodbye yellow... making of " singing with a dinamic mic on a recording.Don´t know if is the final recording, but probably yes.
(great singer...)

I know that many rock singers record with dinamic, but I thank was more the
"hard rock" guys.
 
Microphones are a funny thing. There like preamps...what is the best, do you have to have a highend piece to get the sound. A very high end mic WILL add a bit to the soup. Just as a high end mic preamp. It is not the end all though. Environment is very important,MIC PLACEMENT is extremely important. Good signal is good signal and remember crap in crap out.
 
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