Computer DAW Purchase/Setup

[jsjwooowooo]

I am fairly new to recording on the computer and recording in general, and want to get a good sounding basic setup.

Ideally I would like to be able to make some pretty nice sounding recordings that involve:

Vocals (Condenser and Dynamic Mics)
Acoustic Guitar (Possibly Electric in the future)
Digital Keyboard (Yamaha YPG 635)

I was also hoping to be able to record at least two inputs at a time.

So I checked out zzounds.com to look for some DAW USB interfaces that are around $200 or under.

I ended up liking the looks of the Roland UA-33 TRI-CAPTURE USB Audio Interface and the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB Audio Interface.

So the first quick thing I need a little help on is in what way to get the sound from the YPG 635 to the interface. I believe that the digital keyboard only has a line output option through a single 1/4 inch jack, and I am just not quite sure what type of cable to buy. From my internet sleuthing, I think a Balanced 1/4 inch Stereo TRS to TRS cable is what I need. So if you guys could help me confirm this or correct me that would be awesome.

And if you want to help me understand audio cables forever, a quick explanation of Hi-z, Low-z, and the relation to balanced and unbalanced would be awesome. Are the two sets of terms related to one another? My novice research leads me to believe that Hi-z is related to or the same as an unbalanced cable, and Low-z is related to or the same as a balanced cable.

Also, neither interface comes with MIDI inputs/outs. My keyboard can transmit MIDI signals thru a USB connection, and I noticed products like the Roland UM-ONE USB MIDI Interface which give MIDI in's and outs for around $40, so I figured I could buy one of those later if I ever want to do more complex MIDI operations.

So I was just wondering on general thoughts on the setup and what and where to purchase. Any other suggestions as to what kind of interface to buy, preferably near the price range of $200 are totally welcome. I was also intending on just using the software that comes with the interface, at least to start. The Roland comes with a Sonar X1 LE, and the Focusrite comes with Ableton Live Lite 8, any thoughts on these guys either?

Okay, I think I got down everything, let me know if you have any questions about my ideas or setup. Thanks again in advance for any response!

 

[Bobbsy]

You're not far off on most of it.

"High Z" and "Low Z" are talking about the impedance of a connection. The vast majority of devices used for audio today are low impedance devices, the on common exception being electric guitars which (because of the way pickups work) are high impedance devices.

Beyond that, in the old days (old enough that even I can only just barely remember them) devices had to be carefully matched for impedance but, nowadays, things are set up so outputs are a relatively low impedance and inputs are somewhat higher. This means that, within reason, you can plug most things into most other things.

Balanced and unbalanced don't automatically specify impedance but, in practical terms, everything balanced works the way I described above (low impedance output to "higher but still relatively low" impedance input). MOST unbalanced things (for example the RCA ins and outs on a mixer or hifi unit or TS jacks on similar things) also work this way. The big exception, as mentioned above, are electric guitars--unbalanced jacks but high impedance.

The one thing to remember is that balanced and stereo are NOT the same thing even though they sometimes use the same TRS connectors. Stereo on a TRS jack/socket is unbalanced--the tip feeds the left channel, the ring feeds the right and the sleeve is the common ground/return. Balanced circuits, on the other hand, use the tip and ring to feed the SAME signal but with the phase inverted on the ring. This is a means to reduce noise on circuits--the receive end corrects the phase on the inverted leg and, when the signals are combined, most induced noise will cancel itself out. I won't bore you with all the detail--you can do some Googling and read up on balanced signals if you like.

Now, as for your keyboard: if it really is a balanced output then your idea of a TRS cable is spot on. However, a quick look at the Yamaha web site seems to imply that the only output is the headphone jack. I only had a quick look so may certainly be wrong--but if this is the case, then you need a specific adaptor from stereo TRS on one end to 2 unbalanced jacks on the other. Depending on the interface you finally choose this will likely be two TS jacks but I've seen some interfaces that might want two RCAs. Feeding unbalanced stereo via TRS-TRS to a balanced input will result in some funny sounds because of the phase inverting I mentioned above.

As for MIDI, my quick read of the Yamaha site also suggests that the MIDI output on your keyboard is USB rather than the old five pin DIN. If I've got this right, you might not even need an interface. I know that Yamaha provide MIDI drivers that allow you to go straight into some/most DAWs. I use these for MIDI control surface purposes with a digital mixer but am pretty sure you could interface to a sequencer in the same way. Have a look HERE for the drivers I'm mentioning.

Of the two interfaces you mention, I have a slight preference for the Scarlett 2i2 (better pre amps in my opinion) but both are okay. As for the software, be aware that, in both cases, the included versions are very stripped down, designed to tempt you to spend money on buying the proper full versions. I may as well be the first to suggest you give Reaper a try--free to try and only $60 for the full version if you like it. It's darn good value.

Hope this helps.

 

[jsjwooowooo]

Perhaps I Have It!

Okay, I have been thinking about all you said, Bobbsy, I was going to try and reiterate it to be sure I have got a full understanding.

You are right, my keyboard only has a 1/4 inch headphone output. I did know that, but didn't quite understand the whole balanced/unbalanced thing yet, so I was wrong about the balanced output in the first post.

So, because the 1/4 inch headphone output on the digital keyboard outputs in stereo (for piano sound panning) and has only one output jack, this output has to be unbalanced, because the cable doesn't have any more...wrong word here I am sure...lines to carry the extra sound information that would later be needed to get rid of some noise and thus be considered balanced.

Okay, I think I understand the rest of what you said if the following is true: the general inputs on the audio interfaces are mono inputs, that can accept balanced signals via TRS but not stereo signals via TRS.

So, what I think you were saying for my case, is to split the 1/4 inch stereo TRS output from digital keyboard into two 1/4 inch mono TS that would then plug into the two in's on the interface.

However, you then noted that this may sound wonky due to the audio interface having balanced inputs...hrmm, I don't want my keyboard recordings to sound wonky, so what can I do? I noticed on the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 interface, each input has a switch for LINE/INST (zzounds.com/item--FOCSCAR82I2). Would setting those correctly fix that problem?

I have also used the USB for MIDI on my keyboard before, I was just thinking about in the future if I might want to use a five pin device.

I also saw this PreSonus AudioBox (zzounds.com/item--PRSAUDIOBOX), which looks a lot like the Focusrite, but has MIDI in's and outs. Any thoughts?

And how can I be sure that my digital keyboard is outputting in stereo TRS? All the manual has to say about it is "PHONES/OUTPUT"....not very specific. And in the keyboard's output settings, there are some options called Line 1 and Line 2, I think that was what made me think balanced output, because I was associating Line with balanced...is that true?

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Bobbsy]

You're most of the way there, so I'll only pick up the points where clarification is needed:

However, you then noted that this may sound wonky due to the audio interface having balanced inputs...hrmm, I don't want my keyboard recordings to sound wonky, so what can I do? I noticed on the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 interface, each input has a switch for LINE/INST (zzounds.com/item--FOCSCAR82I2). Would setting those correctly fix that problem?

It would only sound wonky if you tried to go from a single stereo (unbalanced) TRS output to a single BALANCED TRS input. As I mentioned, balanced signals are meant to have identical signals, just out of phase, on the two legs then flip the phase of one leg to cancel noise. If you flip the phase of a STEREO signal, you end up also cancelling anything common to both channels, i.e. anything panned centrally. (As an aside, this is how most "voice cancellers" claiming to create karaoke tracks work.) As soon as you go to TS jacks on the other end and use two inputs, problem solved and all should sound fine. Set the Line/Instrument switch to Line and tweak the level on the keyboard output--the volume control is one of the pains of using a headphone out--and you'll be good to go. The "instrument" setting raises the impedance for electric guitars being input directly and may also tweak the level range since guitars are halfway between mic and line level.

I have also used the USB for MIDI on my keyboard before, I was just thinking about in the future if I might want to use a five pin device.

Up to you but you'd need an adaptor since, unless I missed it on the Yamaha site, your keyboard doesn't have a five pin MIDI connection. Most interfaces offering MIDI accept the 5 pin DIN, not USB.

I also saw this PreSonus AudioBox (zzounds.com/item--PRSAUDIOBOX), which looks a lot like the Focusrite, but has MIDI in's and outs. Any thoughts?

I've got no personal experience with the Presonus--but, since your keyboard has MIDI out on USB, would the 5 pin DIN connectors be any use to you?

And how can I be sure that my digital keyboard is outputting in stereo TRS? All the manual has to say about it is "PHONES/OUTPUT"....not very specific. And in the keyboard's output settings, there are some options called Line 1 and Line 2, I think that was what made me think balanced output, because I was associating Line with balanced...is that true?

The norm for a headphone socket is stereo. A mono signal sound very un-natural on headphones, like it's coming from the middle of your head. However, if you want to check this, the left hand notes should be biased to the left ear and vice versa. I can't answer your Line 1/Line 2 question--that'll be one for your user manual I think.

However, "Line Level" is just a standard level from Audio gear--usually devices that are powered--as different from "Mic Level". Line Level can be balanced or unbalanced. Most pro gear is balanced, most domestic gear unbalanced.

 

[jsjwooowooo]

Okay, I decided to go with the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 interface! I have also been messing with Reaper and like what I have been able to do so far! Thanks for the suggestion, finally some DAW software with a reasonable price!

I still I am not quite sure what cables and adapters to buy. I think I am missing just a few logical links and then I will really understand.

So I would like some help with the following?

1. Can a TRS 1/4 inch cable be used for an unbalanced stereo signal or a balanced mono signal? Or is there some physical difference in cables that make them balanced or unbalanced, and thus defines them to a particular use? And is this whole situation different for TS cables?

2. Jacks (where I will plug in my cables) can be balanced or unbalanced, and thus need the correct signal type (this is the reason why having a stereo signal output going to a balanced input would cause trouble), correct?

So what I figured I could do for my digital keyboard situation was use a 1/4 stereo TRS interconnect cable, then plug that into a 1/4 Inch Stereo to 2x 1/4 Inch Mono Jack Splitter Adapter, and then use 2x 1/4 inch TS cables to connect to the interface. Does this all sound good?

Adapters and splitters don't seem to have any mention of signal type, so I was hoping I didn't quite have to worry about that. That is, I can assume the splitter does the same physical thing to the signal regardless of whether a balanced or unbalanced signal is coming in (a splitter doesn't really make sense for a balanced signal, though, yes?).

Sorry for the continued questions if they same a tad repetitive, just want to makes sure I get the right equipment. Thanks for all the help!

 

[Bobbsy]

You're right. To a large extent the connectors and cable don't matter as long as they have the right number of connectors and cores in the cable. This is why an XLR can carry mic or line level. It CAN get a bit more complicated than that--impedance, capacitance and shielding can be an issue, as can phantom power on jacks, but, for what we're talking about here, adaptors will work.

Your suggested method should work, or you could just get a single cable that would do the same thing--a cable commonly sold as an "Insert Cable" should do the job for you. It has a single TRS jack at one and and two TS jacks at the other--one of the TS jacks is wired to the Tip and Sleeve; the other to the Ring and Sleeve.