JTC111
Active member
So, um, in answer to your original question ...
The more expensive comps generally sound better.
You're welcome.
.
My kingdom for a smartass filter!
My kingdom for a smartass filter!
NL5
Unpossible!
Again, I think you are not really understanding the fundamentals of what a compressor does. I understand what you think you are using it for, and yes, it will work to accomplish what you are doing, but it will also cause the issues you are citing as reasons to not automate, to worsen, not be better. A comp will bring the noise up, and the actual guitar sound down, no? Automation will bring the noise AND the guitar sound up. Automation will be heard far less than compression, unless you do it wildly - but wild compression is pretty obvious as well. I am not trying t rail you, I just want to understand how a compressor is better in this situation. In fact, I would love to be shown to be wrong, and learn a new trick. I love new tricks!
So, um, in answer to your original question ...
The more expensive comps generally sound better.
You're welcome.
.
Compressors demystified!
D
Daisy
Banned
Although I should have added:
so long as you know what the heck you're doing.
Ouch!!
so long as you know what the heck you're doing.
Ouch!!
JTC111
Active member
Again, I think you are not really understanding the fundamentals of what a compressor does. I understand what you think you are using it for, and yes, it will work to accomplish what you are doing, but it will also cause the issues you are citing as reasons to not automate, to worsen, not be better. A comp will bring the noise up, and the actual guitar sound down, no? Automation will bring the noise AND the guitar sound up. Automation will be heard far less than compression, unless you do it wildly - but wild compression is pretty obvious as well. I am not trying t rail you, I just want to understand how a compressor is better in this situation. In fact, I would love to be shown to be wrong, and learn a new trick. I love new tricks!
I'll try to do it your way as well and compare, but I'm not even sure how to do it with only one set of hands which will be busy on the guitar. It bears repeating... I'm not a tech-head. I'll have to give it some thought.
Compressors demystified!
Don't encourage her.
Booda
Master of the Obvious
I don't really EQ much either... No "Wild" Eq at least. I usually just Eq the Bottom and low mids with a Cut and if I touch the upper mids or Highs it might be a bit of a boost to bring a instrument out in the mix. In general I don't do much more than -5 or +5 depending. Even a +1.5 can help bring something out. IMO. i.e. on my last project there was a banjo in one of the tunes and the guy wanted it a little louder... too me it had enough weight (body) in the mix and didn't really need to be Louder... so I EQ'd +2 (somewhere, can't remember 3k-5k ?) and it came out and he say's that's perfect.
As far as Compression... personally I do like more of a Live sound (Dynamics). But if your comparing to Commercial releases... the only way for me to get close is by Compressing. Personally I think Compression is the Secret for great Mixes. & it's the hardest thing to get to Know. 10 years ago I told a Engineer friend of mine Compression is something I just don't quite get... and it's only really been in the last 3 or 4 that I feel I'm getting it. I think your right about Too Much Comp on Home recordings. I think too many people want to or need to Hear It and that is usually too much. That's why I call it a Secret. The whole pumping and breathing with Kick and snare is something I'm still working on.
I also look at it like this...
When your recording a Good Song none of this really matters.
But when you record a Bad song and someone says "Man that sounds Good!" You know your doing something right.
B.
Daisy... You been Blowing Chessrock?
As far as Compression... personally I do like more of a Live sound (Dynamics). But if your comparing to Commercial releases... the only way for me to get close is by Compressing. Personally I think Compression is the Secret for great Mixes. & it's the hardest thing to get to Know. 10 years ago I told a Engineer friend of mine Compression is something I just don't quite get... and it's only really been in the last 3 or 4 that I feel I'm getting it. I think your right about Too Much Comp on Home recordings. I think too many people want to or need to Hear It and that is usually too much. That's why I call it a Secret. The whole pumping and breathing with Kick and snare is something I'm still working on.
I also look at it like this...
When your recording a Good Song none of this really matters.
But when you record a Bad song and someone says "Man that sounds Good!" You know your doing something right.
B.
Daisy... You been Blowing Chessrock?
NL5
Unpossible!
Do you use a DAW? If not, compression may have to do. I would still compress at mixdown if possible though. If you use a DAW, it's pretty straight forward, and something you should certainly learn how to do. Not only can you fix dynamics (which really should be played right to begin with, but that's another discussion), you can do some REALLY cool tricks. I don't think I've done a mix in a long time that didn't have some automation in it. Oh, and I just re-read your post. Automation is done AFTER you record. If their is so much dynamic range that parts are actually inaudible, you need to instruct the guitar player to play with a little less dynamics - if you're the guitar player, it should be an easy discussion
I have recorded a lot of acoustic instruments though, and never had the dynamics be much of a problem - dynamics are OK to have. Also, if you record at 24 bit, I can't imaging getting enough volume difference from clipping to inaudible on an acoustic guitar, or the guitar player wouldn't even be able to hear what he was playing.....
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Booda
Master of the Obvious
Automation is done after the Fact... lay down your tracks, then in your DAW you can Automate the level of the track... to bring the Volume level up or down.
What program are you using?
NL5
Unpossible!
Absolutely!
But now we are not talking about "controlling a track" while recording. As I said., I love to abuse compressors for effect. In fact, I love to take a rock vocal, put it thru an 1176 at 20:1 and the GR needle only comes off of being pegged during the silent parts!
JTC111
Active member
I don't really EQ much either... No "Wild" Eq at least. I usually just Eq the Bottom and low mids with a Cut and if I touch the upper mids or Highs it might be a bit of a boost to bring a instrument out in the mix. In general I don't do much more than -5 or +5 depending. Even a +1.5 can help bring something out. IMO. i.e. on my last project there was a banjo in one of the tunes and the guy wanted it a little louder... too me it had enough weight (body) in the mix and didn't really need to be Louder... so I EQ'd +2 (somewhere, can't remember 3k-5k ?) and it came out and he say's that's perfect.
As far as Compression... personally I do like more of a Live sound (Dynamics). But if your comparing to Commercial releases... the only way for me to get close is by Compressing. Personally I think Compression is the Secret for great Mixes. & it's the hardest thing to get to Know. 10 years ago I told a Engineer friend of mine Compression is something I just don't quite get... and it's only really been in the last 3 or 4 that I feel I'm getting it. I think your right about Too Much Comp on Home recordings. I think too many people want to or need to Hear It and that is usually too much. That's why I call it a Secret. The whole pumping and breathing with Kick and snare is something I'm still working on.
I also look at it like this...
When your recording a Good Song none of this really matters.
But when you record a Bad song and someone says "Man that sounds Good!" You know your doing something right.
B.
Daisy... You been Blowing Chessrock?
I don't want to hear it at all. But I also don't want people to have to adjust and readjust their volume when listening to a song. My first cd got some buzz and some airplay. I think I have a chance to make some real headway with the next cd as the songs I've written are stronger and I have some pretty well-known names (at least well-known in folk circles) making guest appearances.
NL5
Unpossible!
I just listened to a couple of your tracks on your website. Di you record those? I thought they sounded pretty good. I think you could let the AC guitar have some more dynamics though, but that is a matter of taste. I wouldn't worry so much about getting them super loud. If you can swing a decent mastering job, I think they will do amazing things for your tracks. They are decent as they stand, and if your witting is better, and your recording is even a little bit better, you should have a pretty good CD.
JTC111
Active member
Eh, it's ancient. I'm using protools and an 001. I'm about to have to 001 modified by Black Lion Audio.
But that said, I guess I was misunderstanding what you were saying. I've tried what you've just described and I wasn't crazy about the results. I've found that I've gotten better results when I've put a little bit of compression on the guitar tracks and then did the automation.
Anyway, we've totally gone astray of my original question which was to find out what I could expect to be different when using a high end compressor versus what I'm using now which is a Focusrite Compounder.
JTC111
Active member
I just listened to a couple of your tracks on your website. Di you record those? I thought they sounded pretty good. I think you could let the AC guitar have some more dynamics though, but that is a matter of taste. I wouldn't worry so much about getting them super loud. If you can swing a decent mastering job, I think they will do amazing things for your tracks. They are decent as they stand, and if your witting is better, and your recording is even a little bit better, you should have a pretty good CD.
Kind words are always welcome. Thank you.
Two of the songs, Eddie's Car and Melted Toys, were done in a friend's project studio. Nothing elaborate though. I think we were using a single AT4047 for the guitar and the same mic again for the vocals going into a Yamaha O1v board, into an Digi 002. That same friend is now the music director for the John Edward show. He did all the keyboard work on my first cd and he'll probably do most of the piano parts for the next one.
Dry Ground is just a rough take I made to let someone hear the song because the first time I played it publicly was during a radio interview and I wanted a little feedback on it before I put it out there. I'm trying to remember the mics I used on that. I think it was an AKG C451B and an AKG C414 B-XL II, going into a Focusrite TwinTrak into an O1v and then into the 001. For the vocals, I used a LiquidChannel but I don't remember what emulations I was playing around with at the time.
I'm upgrading my dual-channel pre to a Demeter VTMP-2C and, as I said before, I'm getting Black Lion to upgrade my 001.
I've done some mixing for some friends and they've loved it, so on that front, I'm fairly confident that I can do myself some justice. I don't have the gear nor the knowledge to master, so I'll probably outsource that stuff.
Thanks again for liking the songs.
Nick98338
New member
The volume automation comes *after* the recording is in the box. Not while you have your hands on the guitar. When the track is played back, you control the volume with the faders. The software also "records" the fader actions. Then the next time you play the track, or bounce it, the fader action will also be played back.
JTC111
Active member
30+ posts in the thread and it occurs to me i still don't know the difference between a $3000 and a $300 compressor. Ahh young grasshopper, maybe that's the answer to the question.
B
bigtoe
New member
well- you kinda dodged the question. you should know what you're doing with the 300 dollar compressor before you move on to the 3000...and i mean no offense by saying it. if you want a strict comparison a good one to follow is: you can screw up tracks with both cheap and expensive - the higher end one's can sound even worse doing the wrong things.
if you want an answer - get to know what your 300 dollar compressor is before asking what the 3000 dollar one is.
now if you want a more expensive compressor for your acoustic and vocals it sounds like an la3 may suit ya. from reading some critiques to your tracks - it sounds like you may not need one either...
also your noise issue is really a playing, proper gain staging and/or background noise issue. your compressor will bring up the same noise and your tracks will be the same weight more or less.
good luck!
Mike
JTC111
Active member
I understand your point and no offense is taken. At this point I have no reason to buy a new compressor because I still have no idea how it would benefit me.
Well that's what I've been doing. And because I have no real complaints about it, I was wondering what I could be missing.
Hmmm.... just when I was starting to think you're a pretty good guy, you throw that LA3 out there. So let me see if I can pose a question that you'll actually answer rather than cleverly toss back at me... Assuming, for the sake of this hypothetical, that I possess skills surpassing the finest audio engineers in the world, and assuming that I used both the LA3 and the Focusrite Compounder in the most musical way possible, what would the LA3 do for me that the Compounder couldn't?
There is one possibility you're leaving out. It may be that I can never be satisified with the recorded acoustic sound. What may sound like great tracks to someone else, may not ever sound great to me because I'm being too damn critical. I can have others playing and record them on my gear and feel like I"ve captured great tracks; do the same for myself and I feel like I've come up short. So in the end, I may just be a headcase.
R
rsolinski
New member
Okay..so I didn't read thru the whole thread but I will still throw my .02 in...High end compressors are leaps and bounds better than low end stuff..They are way better at preserving the frequency of the material..not perfect mind you but what they do with the freq response has a vibe to it. I own 2 high end units and when I got them I imediately said.."A HA!"...With a good mic, pre and compressor it becomes relatively easy to get a smoothe, polished and translatable sound. As I upgraded my chains I think the jump to professional compressing made the biggest, most noticaeable impact on the sound. I will now sit here while people attempt to assail me with tails of great mixes and sounds they have gotten with this or that cheap gear. More power to you. I have been doing this for 20+ years and have owned just about every prosumer box as I moved up the ladder. Here is the advice nobody likes to heed. IF you want to pursue a professional career as an AE or are simply trying to get the "pro sound"...be patient,save your clams and buy good gear. Worst case if you want to quit you can sell it as pro gear rarely loses any value provided you care for it. Now donning my flameproof suit.......
Cheers,
Ray
...Cheers,
Ray
B
Big Kenny
New member
What are you using Ray?
B
bigtoe
New member
"Hmmm.... just when I was starting to think you're a pretty good guy, you throw that LA3 out there. So let me see if I can pose a question that you'll actually answer rather than cleverly toss back at me... Assuming, for the sake of this hypothetical, that I possess skills surpassing the finest audio engineers in the world, and assuming that I used both the LA3 and the Focusrite Compounder in the most musical way possible, what would the LA3 do for me that the Compounder couldn't?"
i answered your question in my first post. i'm not tossing anything back at ya. the LA3 is idiot proof which is why i brought it up... and why i own it.
"There is one possibility you're leaving out. It may be that I can never be satisified with the recorded acoustic sound. What may sound like great tracks to someone else, may not ever sound great to me because I'm being too damn critical."
No, I'm not leaving anything out... it sounds like you don't know how to use a compressor and you're expecting too much from one. I'd practice your guitar if you are having problems like the one's you are having.
If you want to understand what a nice compressor will do for you other than just "sound better"...get away from the computer and in front of a nice compressor...no other way to find out.
out,
Mike
i answered your question in my first post. i'm not tossing anything back at ya. the LA3 is idiot proof which is why i brought it up... and why i own it.
"There is one possibility you're leaving out. It may be that I can never be satisified with the recorded acoustic sound. What may sound like great tracks to someone else, may not ever sound great to me because I'm being too damn critical."
No, I'm not leaving anything out... it sounds like you don't know how to use a compressor and you're expecting too much from one. I'd practice your guitar if you are having problems like the one's you are having.
If you want to understand what a nice compressor will do for you other than just "sound better"...get away from the computer and in front of a nice compressor...no other way to find out.
out,
Mike
JTC111
Active member
Okay..so I didn't read thru the whole thread but I will still throw my .02 in...High end compressors are leaps and bounds better than low end stuff..They are way better at preserving the frequency of the material..not perfect mind you but what they do with the freq response has a vibe to it. I own 2 high end units and when I got them I imediately said.."A HA!"...With a good mic, pre and compressor it becomes relatively easy to get a smoothe, polished and translatable sound. As I upgraded my chains I think the jump to professional compressing made the biggest, most noticaeable impact on the sound. I will now sit here while people attempt to assail me with tails of great mixes and sounds they have gotten with this or that cheap gear. More power to you. I have been doing this for 20+ years and have owned just about every prosumer box as I moved up the ladder. Here is the advice nobody likes to heed. IF you want to pursue a professional career as an AE or are simply trying to get the "pro sound"...be patient,save your clams and buy good gear. Worst case if you want to quit you can sell it as pro gear rarely loses any value provided you care for it. Now donning my flameproof suit....
Cheers,
Ray
Thanks Ray. That actually answers my original question. I have no idea why others were so reluctant to do so. I think I'm going to have to pick something up down the road just to do some A/B comparisons for myself.
So if you'd care to make some recommendations, I'm all ears. My primary applications for the unit would be acoustic guitar and male vocals (more baritone rather than tenor). And those are the two things that would be most prominent in the mix.