compressing to track

[MattDrew]

Im going to be recording some drum tracks. I'm using 8 mics.
2 rode NT5's as overheads
sm 57's on the snare and rack toms
beta 52a on the kick
AT 2021 on the hi hat
AT 2020 on the floor tom

the kick and snare are running through a presonus bluetube pre and the rack toms through a DMP3 pre.

I'm recording all this onto a Yamaha AW4416 and I havent really touched the the dynamics or eq on the input section.
Just wondering what slight compression parameters would help me get a little more headroom for each of those tracks?

any other suggestions are also welcome..

 

[Massive Master]

If you're even *close* to needing compression to "gain headroom" then you're tracking WAY to hot...

 

[benalog]

hi there,

try getting your levels as high as u can without it clipping and record em clean without any compression or fx and experiment with the mic placement. you'd be surprised that by moving a particular mic a few inches will make an audible difference to your sound. just my 2 cents, cheers.

 

[Massive Master]

try getting your levels as high as u can without it clipping and record em (snip)

That is totally, 100%, absolutely, undeniably, as wrong as anything I've ever read in my entire life.

Although I'm all over recording dry and experimenting with mic placement...

Unless someone has changed line level, the "ideal" recording level is going to hit your converters at around -18dBFS. No where *near* clipping. If you get a signal near 0dBFS, you're literally overdriving your input stage. "Getting hot levels" was ridiculous even in 16-bit (where most converters were calibrated to -12dBFS). Now (with 24-bit recording and FAR superior conversion), it's absolutely insane.

Where does this come from...?

 

[Rokket]

That is totally, 100%, absolutely, undeniably, as wrong as anything I've ever read in my entire life.

Although I'm all over recording dry and experimenting with mic placement...

Unless someone has changed line level, the "ideal" recording level is going to hit your converters at around -18dBFS. No where *near* clipping. If you get a signal near 0dBFS, you're literally overdriving your input stage. "Getting hot levels" was ridiculous even in 16-bit (where most converters were calibrated to -12dBFS). Now (with 24-bit recording and FAR superior conversion), it's absolutely insane.

Where does this come from...?

The newest trend in pro recording would be my guess. They are driving the levels to white noise on most recordings. I think the AE's are just getting a kick out of filling out the wave form as solid as possible, nevermind that it sounds like crap...

 

[xstatic]

Getting a mix to a blazing high level has absolutely nothing to do with tracking hot. That type of headroom (or lack thereof) is donew in mixdown, 2 track (buss)processing, and mastering. Recording hot levels is certainly not a new trend in pro recording. More like an exisitng myth with home recording.

 

[littledog]

Not totally a myth - just confusion with analog/tape recording technique.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Not totally a myth - just confusion with analog/tape recording technique.

I think that's a big part of it. There's a lot of rookies that erroneously use the term "clipping" when referring to the analog part of the chain, when what they really should be saying is "heavily exceeding 0dBVU", and when they say "as hot as possible" in analog they really should be saying "close to 0dBVU".

As to whether it's just a misunderstanding in terminology or a misunderstanding of the actual differences between the analog and digital domains? Probably some of both.

G.

 

[xstatic]

To me telling someone to track as hot as possible at the converter is like telling someone to just leave their car in first gear on the highway. You might get it to do it, but it won't be nearly as happy a thing as cruising around in 4th or 5th gear. Also, notice how much noisier and how much more uncontrollable a car is when it is doing 55 in first or second gear?

 

[gcapel]

To me telling someone to track as hot as possible at the converter is like telling someone to just leave their car in first gear on the highway. second gear?

I go in reverse down the highway.... whatchu talking about... lol

 

[xstatic]

I go in reverse down the highway.... whatchu talking about... lol

So to follow the analogy then you are using all digital mics and recording to an analog medium with as low a level as possible in order to obtain the quietest mix you possibly can't hear?

 

[benalog]

Getting a mix to a blazing high level has absolutely nothing to do with tracking hot. That type of headroom (or lack thereof) is donew in mixdown, 2 track (buss)processing, and mastering. Recording hot levels is certainly not a new trend in pro recording. More like an exisitng myth with home recording.

so what is the recommended level to track in? is it safe to say one could track in lower levels to maintain/preserve the dynamics then move on to the mixdown session to maximize the available headroom? thanks...

 

[flatfinger]

the majority or bulk of a signal should be somewere between -18 and -14 dBFS. This will leave ample room for the transients, which will be higher. You must leave room for these because any compressor or limiter set with a fast enough attack time to control them is going to take the life out of the initial percussive attack.

There's no reason to risk distortion when tracking, if you need more level during the mix- down you can always use the sub-busses to multiply it.

 

[Massive Master]

More specifically, your preamps (and compressors, and EQ's, and converters, and plugins - yes, even plugins) are designed to run somewhere around line level. 0dBVU.

Depending on how your converters are calibrated, that's going to equate to a signal averaging around -18dBFS (plus occasional peaks, of course).

Recording hot levels is certainly not a new trend in pro recording. More like an exisitng myth with home recording.

I don't think recording "hot" (a little tape saturation aside) was *ever* a trend in professional recording.

With 24-bit digital, the trend is for much *lower* levels - The amount of headroom in 24-bit digital vs. the dynamic range of nearly any input chain is absolutely obscene - Tracking hot - without a specific reason to (which I can't think of, but I thought I'd throw it in) flies in the face of logic.

I mean, if you *want* to overdrive your input chain - Losing calirty and focus, throwing the S/N to the wind, adding distortion, causing "freaky spectral dynamics" (making things VERY hard to EQ effectively later) and all of that wonderful stuff, go right ahead. But know that's not "normal" by any stretch.

Although I've actually seen confusing references to it in several manuals and notes of respected gear manufacturers... Which bugs me a lot.

 

[benalog]

the majority or bulk of a signal should be somewere between -18 and -14 dBFS. This will leave ample room for the transients, which will be higher. You must leave room for these because any compressor or limiter set with a fast enough attack time to control them is going to take the life out of the initial percussive attack.

There's no reason to risk distortion when tracking, if you need more level during the mix- down you can always use the sub-busses to multiply it.

i see. appreciate your input. i dont mean to hijack MattDrew's thread, but my 1st attempt tracking drums didnt really yield a satisfactory sound as i expected. i used the following equipment (bear with me, these gears are no way near the professional standards )

PC:
Cubase SX3 on P4 236Ghz, 1GB memory
RME DIGI9652 PCI
RME ADI-8 Pro
Behringer ADA8000: Snare (top and bottom), tom 1,2 and floor, hihats and ride all directly channeled to the onboard preamp.

Mixer:
Spirit 14:2 analog mixer. Overhead mics goes into channel 1 & 2, sent via AUX 1 & 2 to the DIGI9652. Used the preamps on the Spirit for this.

Preamp:
Presonus Blue for the kick mic then straight to the DIGI9652.

and a bunch of cheap mics from the following manufacturers;

Superlux Pro Kick x1
Superlux Pro Toms x3 (snare top and bottom and floor tom)
Superlux Pro Condensers ( for tom 1 and 2)
Behringer C1 Condensers ( for the overheads)
Behringer C2 Pencil Condensers ( for hi hats and ride)

All recorded in my master bedroom.

If time permits, i would appreciate if any of the pros here could take a listen to the track Hill Of Hopes on TagWorld.

Any comments welcomed. Cheers.

 

[RAMI]

imy 1st attempt tracking drums didnt really yield a satisfactory sound as i expected.

Superlux Pro Kick x1
Superlux Pro Toms x3 (snare top and bottom and floor tom)
Superlux Pro Condensers ( for tom 1 and 2)
Behringer C1 Condensers ( for the overheads)
Behringer C2 Pencil Condensers ( for hi hats and ride)

While I'm not familiar with those specific mics, if you yourself say they are "cheap", then that's probably a good part of your problem.

Also, you're using too many mics, in my opinion. You should be able to get a great drum sound with 4 mics. Man, 10 mics?!?!?!?!?!

Do you really need a high-hat and ride mic? Do you really need tom mics??? Bottom snare??? Are you ready to deal with the phase issues that arise because of all those mics??? Good overhead mic placement should give you all the control you need over the whole kit. Adding a kik and snare mic should be all you need to really get a good drum mix.

 

[littledog]

There's one easy way to find out if RAMI is right.

Assuming every mic is going to a different track, just mute everything but the overheads and kick mic to start with. See how it sounds. Then add in the other mics one at a time. When adding a mic makes the drums sound worse - don't use that track. If there is one part of the song, for instance, where you REALLY need to emphasize the HH, or some spot where you wanted to add a crazy effect JUST on the ride cymbal, you can always unmute that track for just that spot.

 

[RAMI]

There's one easy way to find out if RAMI is right.

Assuming every mic is going to a different track, just mute everything but the overheads and kick mic to start with. See how it sounds. Then add in the other mics one at a time. When adding a mic makes the drums sound worse - don't use that track. If there is one part of the song, for instance, where you REALLY need to emphasize the HH, or some spot where you wanted to add a crazy effect JUST on the ride cymbal, you can always unmute that track for just that spot.

Fair enough. I guess nothing wrong with having those tracks available in case you do need them.

 

[xstatic]

I use 10+ mics all the time for drums. There is nothing wrong with that. Even for live sets i even even do 8 to 10 mics. If you want certain large full drum sounds, then you just have to approach it that way.

 

[RAMI]

I use 10+ mics all the time for drums. There is nothing wrong with that. Even for live sets i even even do 8 to 10 mics. If you want certain large full drum sounds, then you just have to approach it that way.

While I disagree that you need that many mics to get a full drum sound, I'll say that YOU seem to have a better grasp of recording and enough experience to deal with that many mics. So I'm not disptuing the fact that you know how to make that work.

Most people START off by using a million mics without really knowing what they're doing. I'm not directing that at anyone in particular, just saying that people that don't have the experience and/or know-how of recording drums should start by getting a good drum sound out of their overheads before making the mistake of thinking more mics will solve their problems, when in reality, more mics might BE their problem.