Commercial volume question for the mastering gurus...

[guitarslinger56]

Okay, I have a pretty good sounding album right now. When I crank it on stereos everywhere, it sounds fantastic, and through a spectral analyzer it looks nearly identical to most commercial releases. Now just this last week, I purchased a portable MP3 player. I set my new songs in rotation with others on there, and found that my songs sound much lower volume and less crisp than the modern commercial releases.

I am completely baffled. I've been messing around with everything I can think of, and I just can't get the songs to sound louder or crisper and I'm at the 0.0 db cap. I've tried limiting, compressing, and EQing like crazy and just can't get these songs up to commercial loudness. It always winds up sounding too brittle, or too narrow, or too wide. Never the full-bodied spectrum you get from a commercial label release. I've been comparing with the music from these bands: Drowning Pool, Disturbed, Dream Theater, Sevendust, Metallica, & Joe Satriani.

My options now are #1) Release the album as is, because it's still pretty damn good, or #2) Pay a mastering house to re-master this recording for me.

I've been a long time lurker here, and this is my first time posting, and I'm really hoping I can get some good advice from some people on here as to what to do. Any EQ, comp, limiting settings I can get from you guys would be fantastic!

Here's two clips, the music on the disc is mostly instrumental, but I do sing on a few songs:

an instrumental song:

a vocal song:

Thanks in advance to everyone for any and all advice, I really appreciate it!!

~Vince

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

If it is as good as you say don't you think it *deserves* a mastering pro's magic?

Contact Massive Master on this site, he does good work.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I listened to your first clip... it's definitely not quite up-to-par sonically with commerical releases. The mix balance is off and there's a very thin quality to the sound overall. It also sounds like you seriously flattened it with overcompression because there is no hint of punch or dynamics at all.

In this case, I'd have to say you probably still need to work on the mixing skills to see better results.

 

[Ronan]

All of the albums you listed as comparisions are big budget albums that had good tools to work with every step of the way, and great engineers on board. But also they all had real mastering engineers almost certainly using a good does of Analog EQ and compression in the mastering. Its totally worth it to send you stuff out to a real mastering engineer. there are a lot of mastering houses out there that for less than $1000 can really bring your tracks to a whole new level.

 

[Massive Master]

Yes, it's totally worth it to send it out for mastering (I might know a place... )

On the mix - Make the bass sound like a bass - Make the guitars sound like guitars. That's 90% of the problem.

At least the bass - I wouldn't even notice that there's bass in the first one except for the intro. It's paper thin.

The drums... The drums would sound much better if there was some stompin' bass clicking along with them.

And yes, compress only when and where needed during the mix.

 

[guitarslinger56]

At least the bass - I wouldn't even notice that there's bass in the first one except for the intro. It's paper thin.

That's not a bass. That's a 7-string guitar.

First, I'm actually shocked. I've never heard anyone be so negative about the music/mix as you guys just were. Most people that have heard this stuff have loved it. I'm just.. I'm speechless.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

That's not a bass. That's a 7-string guitar.

First, I'm actually shocked. I've never heard anyone be so negative about the music/mix as you guys just were. Most people that have heard this stuff have loved it. I'm just.. I'm speechless.

No one's trying to insult you... you posted saying that you thought you had great sound quality and to your ears it probably is, but then you also expressed that you can't match the sonics of commercial mixes.

After hearing your clip it became clear why -- the sound quality is NOT as great as you think... it's not an insult, you just need to work on your mixing skills a bit further, OR maybe your monitoring chain has problems that are causing you to create poorly balanced mixes.

You may be dismayed at finding out that some improvements are needed, but you can't blame us... YOU posted the question!

You want a pat on the head, let your mama judge your recording... you want some realistic advice from some seasoned pros, then you got it here!

 

[radiorickm]

hey guitarslinger56

don't be offended or hurt by the comments that master and blue bear made.

consider it a compliment..... really.

they are both top notch " ENGINEERS".

It is not that they are trying to put you down, but simply, by the very nature of what they do, is analyize other peoples projects and try and make them better.

If you read a lot of articles about mastering, 90% of them will recommend that you do NOT master your own tracks. It is the highly trained "EAR" of the mastering guru's that makes you mixes that something special. They have lots and let me spell lots.......e x p e n s i v e ....... equipment designed specifically for mastering projects.

one or both of the guys on here even offer to do free samples for you (i think??)


PS...me and blue bear posted at the same time......

believe me........if i submitted one of my tracks like you did, their responce to me would have been a HELL of a lot longer of things I screwed UP!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck dude

 

[mshilarious]

That's not a bass. That's a 7-string guitar.

First, I'm actually shocked. I've never heard anyone be so negative about the music/mix as you guys just were. Most people that have heard this stuff have loved it. I'm just.. I'm speechless.

Well, sorry, we're a hypercritical bunch. That's the only way to get from pretty good to great. I'm definitely not there yet myself.

I can offer a few specific mix suggestions (youhearthis):

- the reverb on the intro, especially the cello, doesn't work. Too wet, too big of a space. Classical piano should not be that compressed.

- the guitars are overcompressed and way back in the mix.

- the snare is hot.

- big problem is the vocals. I think this needs retracking. Really sounds like the wrong mic for the vocalist, and it's flat--occasionally pitch, but mostly energy.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

First, I'm actually shocked. I've never heard anyone be so negative about the music/mix as you guys just were. Most people that have heard this stuff have loved it. I'm just.. I'm speechless.

Most people are also spoonfed sheep without valid opinions. Ouch... zinger... alright back to constructive mode.

As far as critiquing your mix, these are my two cents:

Overall it's not *terrible* but the Metallica meets Type O Negative tones aren't really my cup of tea. Like most metal stuff it is too guitar-o-centric and getting a mix to sound good like that isn't easy. The performances are fine.

The stereo field sounds too wide on the drums... extremely unrealistic and more than likely the source of the 'unbalanced stereo side' issue which I can hear just on my PC speakers. The left side sounds a bit louder, and it seems like the kick is a bit stronger on the left as well. That won't help the low end.

The high hat being exclusively on the left and ride on the right is more than a bit irritating. Sounds unrealistic and gives away the drum machine/sampler origins of the drum track--and if it isn't it makes it sound like one. Not good.

Zero bass guitar definition... if there's even one present. If not--major tracking/arrangement mistake.

The midrange seems pretty weak. Most likely because of the guitar tones.

High end needs more air and sheen.

Take it to heart, you'll get there even if your ego has to take a few smacks along the way.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Another observation:

Probably too much gain on the rhythm guitars. Once you start double tracking it turns into blur or mud. Neither you want. I still say you need more mids and less low end on the rhythm guitars.

Right now it's sound very 1988-1989 retro. And those aren't what I'd consider to be good years in audio recording. Almost everything around then sounded... terrible.

Sort of like now...

 

[Massive Master]

I'm actually shocked. I've never heard anyone be so negative about the music/mix as you guys just were. Most people that have heard this stuff have loved it. I'm just.. I'm speechless.

I didn't think I was being negative at all... Really...


Oh, I've seen Bear be negative before - That wasn't negative either... Trust me. When the Bear gets negative, you'll know it. (Don't feed the Bear)

 

[HangDawg]

I think we have a case of trying to get the "MASSIVE" guitar sound by overdoing everything. Most of the guitar tone is awash in a sea of muddy swirling effects and distortion.


You are obviously a good guitar player. It'd be nice to hear some of it.

I'm wondering. Were the guitars recorded direct?

 

[therage!]

That's not a bass. That's a 7-string guitar.

First, I'm actually shocked. I've never heard anyone be so negative about the music/mix as you guys just were. Most people that have heard this stuff have loved it. I'm just.. I'm speechless.

Have you during the time of mixing been posting songs so people here can help you out? I've posted some of my tunes (which by the way I always thought sounded good) at another BBS but getting feedback from others (especially those with a lot of experience) is vital as far as I'm concerned. Getting your mix to sound good on every system you play it on is not easy. I’ve found the best thing to do here is to check my ego at the door and realize that these guys are just sometimes brutally honest. I’ve been in that same situation where people who hear a song I recorded really like it, but are these people recording engineers? In my case they weren’t and the guys with well trained ears point the negatives out. You can only learn from it.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Don't sweat it--if you post a song mix for criticism SOMEONE will find SOMETHING wrong with it.

If George Massenburg, George Martin or Mutt Lange posted a mix someone would criticize it--heck, they might even be right about it.

No such thing as a perfect mix; what is genius for one group of people is crap for another. You WILL NOT PLEASE EVERYONE. The only thing you can hope for as an AE is to please your paying clients. And trust me, this is more annoying than it sounds--I have clients that *insist* on having their material sound like ass because it 'isn't loud enough'.

 

[guitarslinger56]

You WILL NOT PLEASE EVERYONE.

Oh, I know that Especially when doing a niche-market album like instrumental rock. It's just that some of the comments on here today just sound asinine and not worthy of a response. Like saying it doesn't sound clear, or you can't hear the guitars, or the bass drum is to one side (no it isn't) or one guy saying the guitars don't even sound like guitars.

I mean seriously WTF? All it needs to my ears is to be mastered. I was just kinda hoping I could get some TWEAKING advice on how to bring up the levels through comp, limiting, EQ, and such to get it to sound more on the level of commercial releases. The feedback that someone said that the bass guitar can't be heard on the one song is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.

I know I'm new, and I hope I don't come across as sounding brash, but jesus people, your criticism has to make sense.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

You can either learn something from some of the pros here, or you can stick your head in the sand..... your choice.

 

[mshilarious]

I know I'm new, and I hope I don't come across as sounding brash, but jesus people, your criticism has to make sense.

OK.

You sound like a low-budget Queensryche.

Does that help?

 

[guitarslinger56]

OK.

You sound like a low-budget Queensryche.

Does that help?

Man, that was just downright rude.

 

[glimmer_doll]

OK.

You sound like a low-budget Queensryche.

Does that help?

lmao

oh, that was funny...