Collaboration Legalities

studioviols

studioviols

New member
Ok, so this is not about mixing ...

It's about collaboration. Because I am primarily in the business of music, and in the hobby of homerecording to record violin , viola and cello to other people's music, I would like to discuss the subject of serious collaborations.

Here are some issues :

01. Who gets credits for what should something big happen with the project ?

02. Does the original artist retain all rights after others have added their work to the final mix ?

We all know there are some greedy, coniving people out there just waiting to claim unopened treasures ... So what's the best way to protect ourselves in a collaboration ?

And Cakewalk SONAR 3.0 is hitting the market right now, and it has the capabilities to do some amazing collaboration things over the INTERNET using BROADBAND, so this is a real issue for all of us.

And Cakewalk SONAR 3.0 also gives those that 'JUST MIX' a great opportunity to become a solid part of the chain.
 
You get what you negotiate. And can document that you negotiated.

If you're stuck with undocumented/unaddressed issues and a hostile relationship with a collaborateur, GFL. Fortunately, cave threads are good for documenting the way things transpired.

Unfortunately, there're 2 comting things here - the "do what's right" thing, and the "get what I can get" thing.

As far as compositions go --- entirely your melody and lyrics = entirely yours. Chord changes and arrangements don't matter, though an arrangement is also copyrightable.

As far as performance - MAN, I hope you work something out first. Otherwise there's something about material participation and royalties. I dunno howe to define material here - obviously, the lead vocal is key. And of course the keyboard part. All those lesser instruments, though...:eek:

:D

Cubase was integrated with the now defunct Rocket Network at one point. So the need to define this because of advancing technology is not exactly a new issue. But the shades of gray will always be problematic...

Let's say I write and record a song, and crawdad covers it, with my blessing and his interpretation. Then I retrack it with some lyric changes, and assimilate one of the "interpreted" melody lines crawdad used. Then Jagular offers to sing it for me to use as a demo, and borrows a few more crawdadisms, and adds a few Jagular goodies too. Then I sell the song to a huge star (I dunno, let's say Clint Black) who sings it note-for-note the way Jagular did...

Obviously, I'm entitled to royalties - it's my f#$%ing song! But what about crawdad? Even my final version used one of his lines. And Jagular? Clint took his lines too, plus some more of crawdad's! Unless I make terms with these guys up front, I might well be stuck with just 1/3 of the royalties...

And that's just the songwriting end of it. Obviously, the best bet is to handle it up front. In writing. Involve a lawyer if you think there's big money involved!

Daf
 
It depends what the other person adds to the project. If the person is adding instruments or vocals without agreed upon terms up front, I think they have just volunteered their services. It's kind of like the person that is adding the instruments/vocals is doing session work for free. I currently have 3 projects going where I am adding vocals as favors. I think a lot of us here do this just for the fun of it.

If collaboration ends up in a substantial re-write of a song, it would probably be best to agree on that up front as a co-writing arrangement. If the collaborators want anything other than an equal share, it's best to get that in writing. In my mind, if I help out another songwriter with a line or idea or two, I don't think I'm entitled to any share of the songwriting, but that's just me. One could make a case for going after someone to share songwriter royalties for lines he suggested and the writer used. Especially when it's all in writing here on the BBS :D.

As far as producing. Say...I have a great guitar/vocal version of a song (I know...that's a stretch :D) and you took it and produced it into an amazing record that sold world wide and got all kinds of airplay. Well...that's a sticky situation too. I really don't know how that side would work, but I guess, without a formal agreement I could say I was the label and collect all mechanical royalties as well as the publisher & writer share of the mechanicals & performance royalties. I think I would be a rat bastard if I didn't share that success with you in some fair fashion, but that's just me. You could also probably bring suit to get some $ because you have a lot of evidence (masters, files, mixes, notes, email correspondence...). I'm not sure how that would all turn out, but it would probably be a sticky situation. I would guess the court would see it as a co-production effort and award certain percentages accordingly. I would guess the odds of this happening are slim to none as it takes a lot of juice from major labels to get the proper distribution & air play to make a song this big.


Well, that's my take on some of it. I guess there are a lot of possibilities. :)
 
dafduc said:

Let's say I write and record a song, and crawdad covers it, with my blessing and his interpretation. Then I retrack it with some lyric changes, and assimilate one of the "interpreted" melody lines crawdad used. Then Jagular offers to sing it for me to use as a demo, and borrows a few more crawdadisms, and adds a few Jagular goodies too. Then I sell the song to a huge star (I dunno, let's say Clint Black) who sings it note-for-note the way Jagular did...

Obviously, I'm entitled to royalties - it's my f#$%ing song! But what about crawdad? Even my final version used one of his lines. And Jagular? Clint took his lines too, plus some more of crawdad's! Unless I make terms with these guys up front, I might well be stuck with just 1/3 of the royalties...

And that's just the songwriting end of it. Obviously, the best bet is to handle it up front. In writing. Involve a lawyer if you think there's big money involved!

Daf
Click to expand...

Now this situation sounds familiar (except the Clint Black part). But hey...let's hope you are having a vision :D

Techincally you are correct, but as I mentioned in the above post, I consider this type of thing minor suggestions and not material to the whole of the song. So I, for one, would not be coming after ya :D. Now...if I figured I was going to have material partcipation on the rewrite of a song, either melody or lyrics, I would approach that person with the thought of a co-write up front. If they said no...I'd just demo the song like they wanted or leave it alone. But, that's me.
 
Jagular said:
It depends what the other person adds to the project. If the person is adding instruments or vocals without agreed upon terms up front, I think they have just volunteered their services.
Click to expand...

Whoa,I dont know about that one.You wouldnt take advantage of someone for your own personal gain would you?There is an un-written law among established songwriters known as "good-faith",where all the involved parties conduct their business in an open honest manner.

Song sharks are well known for doing the OPPOSITE.A song shark has the mentality that says "tough shit,we didnt agree on anything in writing up front".

Im not saying thats what YOU are,just making a point.:)
 
There are two copyright registrations at the Library of Congress, the PA (for the songs) and the SR (for the performance). You can choose to do only an SR, which can cover both the performance and the songs on the recording. Each one costs $30.

I phoned Library of Congress and asked them about the SR copyright - the situation where I wrote the songs, but I get people to add their musicianship to various tracks - how do I handle the copyright for that? The person I spoke to said the simplest way of dealing with it is to get the contributors to sign a simple waiver that renounces all claim to copyright. So that's what I did - I explained to drstawl that I wasn't in a position to pay any kind of real fee for his musical services, and if he was happy to do it for the sake of the music and his name on the album, that would be very cool indeed.

That's the free route. But as somebody said above, each situation's negotiable.
 
dobro said:
So that's what I did - I explained to drstawl that I wasn't in a position to pay any kind of real fee for his musical services, and if he was happy to do it for the sake of the music and his name on the album, that would be very cool indeed.

That's the free route. But as somebody said above, each situation's negotiable.
Click to expand...

Thats the honest way to do business IMHO.
 
......awright im drunk...:D

...as far as i know, nobody in here has publishing (except maybe crawdad?)...... nobody in here has a deal, except maybe Sam, but a deal with the devil dont count:D ......so what the fuck?


.....This place is about havin a good time. This place is not about hassling out bizniss when there aint no bizniss to hassle........ no what i mean? People volunteer their services here because they are cool and enjoy doing it....... simple. If you need a sax part, Lt. is all over it. If you need a lead, contact a local guit guru...... need a bass line...etc. Ive never considered the monetary perspective of contributing to tunes in here......... I do it cause its fun, and it allows me to be 25 again, and jam with friends. My contributions are free of charge. I think that most of the folks who collaborate regularly in here feel that way. .....and frankly, if someone ever asked me to have "rights" to something of mine that they added to, Ild be a touch offended, ........might even be inclined to offer a nice fuck you?......:D !

....did i mention I was drunk.... ....sorry ....*burp*
 
What he said - (I ain't drunk - yet)

It's about perspective. The band I was in (notice I did not call it MY band because the lead singer made it clear it was HIS band) recorded a CD about 10 years ago. We covered a Doug Stone tune and a Garth Brooks tune. We did everything the right way - worked through Harry Fox (that was a trip). We wound up producing about 2000 cds (we did NOT sell them all) - the checks we sent to Fox for distribution to the artists wouldn't even buy a decent meal for a family and a couple sets of strings.

Until you sell a million copies the $$ just isn't a very big deal. We spent more than several hundred $$ in labor and time just doing the damned paper. There's no way it was lucrative for Fox or the artists in my opinion.

But the internal strife eventually caused the band to break up! The singer tried to sue me - twice!! It was hilarious in the course of human events but sad for the band and the fans.

I'm out here for the fun and experience - I'm even meeting a few nice people - can't put $$ on that.
~Milan
 
I'm with the last 2 posters

Yeah, what they said.
We're probably not gonna get rich on the music
so lets hhave some fun and collabing is starting to catch on around here so lets have some fun:D

Dan
 
A few thoughts...

If you collab. ALOT and are really worried about it, then your best bet is to copyright ALL of your intended collab. material in either the collection form or individually. THEN either use an
entertainment lawyer or do the research on your own to draft an agreement that you can email to your collab partner. He or she can:

(A) Accept, print it out twice, sign both and send them both to you. (You will sign both, have them notarized and send one back to your partner.)

(B) Email you any additional conditions (In legal verbage) he/she wants you to look over and agree to, THEN the printing, signing and notarizing can take place.

(C) Not accept the terms and back out before any creative fingerprints are put onto anything of yours... In this case You'd be best to print and save any Email to and from them that makes specific mention of your copyright material... INSIST they always use an email account in their name AND ALWAYS use the "Reply" feature for email, so ALL conversations to and from are documented with a date and named address.

(Kind of a buzz kill huh?)

YOU will be obligated to point out that all work is copyright of you on shared lyric or music sheets.

A BIG fuck around can come from you having someone sing your lyrics... They CAN claim that the vocal melody is theirs and that's enough to get screwed. If you have vocal melodies for your songs, you MUST make sure they are included in the material you send to copyright. (It can just be you humming or a piano line or bad singing if that's all that can be managed AND it should be in your stock agreement.
(Basically the musical portion of a song you can "Own" is 99% melody or (As they informally say) the melody "People hum or sing in the shower."

(It's important to know that copyright is NOT total protection.
There are ALSO International Copyright procedures and practices as well.)

Entertainment Lawyers (The ones I've known anyway) are usually goofballs because OF or inspite OF having gone to law school, but a good one can set a whole system up for you pretty simply. (Just don't let them write themselves into the deal! lol)
The software might come with some kind of stock collab. agreement...Who knows?

In reality songs DO get lifted (Not as much as written ideas do), but you have to remember they can be lifted from anywhere on the net you post them as well, so if you're gonna worry about getting ripped off I'd think more about people you don't know snagging, because chances are if a major deal came along you might very well be tripping over yourself to get to the phone or to the PC to contact and work with that particular collaborator in hopes of keep the magic alive.

:)
 
well...I doubt very much if any of us will get rich doing this...
but, the best thing to do is to share and share alike....


I collaborate online a lot.....
all of the tunes at my web-site are on-line colabs of one form or another,.....
some I wrote the music..
some the lyrics...
some both....but, all are team efforts....

I have good faith in the folks I work with....
I feel that they also have good faith in me.....

Besides...it's a lot of fun....
My business is Printing....I make money at it
My hobby is music...I lose money at it :D
but, I would rather be making music more than anything else...

The odds that we will be successful financially are against us fellas....not to say that it couldn't happen....

It should be about the music...about the songs....
not about the sheckels.....especially here....ya know?

my take,
Joe
 
Guernica said:
My contributions are free of charge.
Click to expand...

That's good to hear. :) I'll be in touch about Rhythms "soon." If I can afford the stamp to mail an agreement to you by then... :rolleyes:
 
Kramer said:
Whoa,I dont know about that one.You wouldnt take advantage of someone for your own personal gain would you?There is an un-written law among established songwriters known as "good-faith",where all the involved parties conduct their business in an open honest manner.

Song sharks are well known for doing the OPPOSITE.A song shark has the mentality that says "tough shit,we didnt agree on anything in writing up front".

Im not saying thats what YOU are,just making a point.:)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here. You seem to be talking about songwriting and I am talking about folks just adding instruments/vocals to a project without getting involved in the songwriting.

My point was (obviously I didn't state it that well :D) that if someone here agrees to play on a collab without a formal agreement (which I think all of us do) they may as well figure that they have just donated an instrumental track to a project (at least that's how I look at tracks I provide on a collab) regardless if that project ever makes money or not (more than likely it won't). They would have little legal recourse (IMO of course) to ever get any financial compensation under that arrangement. Of course if it was the lead vocal that was contributed, the vocalist would become the artist and that would change things up a little :D That would be quite a sticky situation with no agreement.

Now, that being said, if I wrote a song and say, Guernica added a bass line, Crawdad added guitar, Lt. Bob added sax (no not sex :D), and say Sluice mixed it and Bear mastered it and this song sold like hot cakes and made me a bunch of money (not very likely), I would definitely take care of these guys with at least a fair session/mixing/mastering fees for their services and probably a little more because I suppose I would be the label (HAW HAW) and be getting that cut as well. That's what I would do, but not everyone may be as fair minded as I am. Of course this is assuming they had no participation in writing the song.

Does that clear things up?
 
dtb said:
just trust me. he he he he he he
Click to expand...
lmao...nice one.


I don't know nuffin' 'bout dat legal eagle bullshit, but I have a record deal with some distribution primarily in the Southwest, and the money is just rolling in. Never could have done it w/o the help of some of you guys. I'm not cutting checks to you losers or anything like that, but... THANKS A LOT!!!! muuhahahahaahahahaa.

Seems to me, if you're gonna' require contract negotiations before you add a track to somebody's project, you're not gonna' be adding many tracks to many projects...so PERSONALLY, I'd rather establish as many contacts and develop as many relationships with as many musicians/writers as possible.

Just like a drug dealer, the money is on the comeback. :D




oh, and for the truly braindead among us, I'm kidding about the record deal...






...the truth is that nothing offered by any of you hacks helped.... :D :D :D

Am I serious? It's maddening, isn't it?
 
SLuiCe said:
That's good to hear. :) I'll be in touch about Rhythms "soon." If I can afford the stamp to mail an agreement to you by then... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Mine aren't....I'm still waiting for your first born, Tom. ;)
 
Jagular said:
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here. You seem to be talking about songwriting and I am talking about folks just adding instruments/vocals to a project without getting involved in the songwriting.

My point was (obviously I didn't state it that well :D) that if someone here agrees to play on a collab without a formal agreement (which I think all of us do) they may as well figure that they have just donated an instrumental track to a project (at least that's how I look at tracks I provide on a collab) regardless if that project ever makes money or not (more than likely it won't). They would have little legal recourse (IMO of course) to ever get any financial compensation under that arrangement. Of course if it was the lead vocal that was contributed, the vocalist would become the artist and that would change things up a little :D That would be quite a sticky situation with no agreement.

Now, that being said, if I wrote a song and say, Guernica added a bass line, Crawdad added guitar, Lt. Bob added sax (no not sex :D), and say Sluice mixed it and Bear mastered it and this song sold like hot cakes and made me a bunch of money (not very likely), I would definitely take care of these guys with at least a fair session/mixing/mastering fees for their services and probably a little more because I suppose I would be the label (HAW HAW) and be getting that cut as well. That's what I would do, but not everyone may be as fair minded as I am. Of course this is assuming they had no participation in writing the song.

Does that clear things up?
Click to expand...

:D
Yes we are talking about 2 differemt things entirely.:o Why didnt you state your position that clearly to start with?LMAO!Just kidding.LOL.I re-read your posts and I can see that you were not talking about songwriting at all.Im an idiot.LOL.
 
Good topic, fellas.

I too do a lot of on-line collabs (violin stuff too, Studioviols!...good to see more of us popping up.)

Anyway, at one time I fancied making a wee bit of $ doing such tracks for other writers' projects, BUT facing the fact that their are sooo many good players that are bartering their talents on-line, it was a tough road. Still, I do them for fun...and it IS fun! Plus, it keeps me playing, which is paramount these days.

So now the money issue is at hand here.

The way I envisioned my original effort working was to simply work-for-hire...charge a small ammount, and work out parts to the song that eventually turned into good tracks. Then post said tracks (or mail a cd with wavs) after collecting the fee. the writer would then do with the tracks as he wished. Done. From what I can tell, this is how many studios work - at least in the demo houses in Nashville.

Obviously deals can be made in infinite ways - if a song has a signature instrument lick, then maybe the player who came up with might get a share of credit.

Currently, I have a good time flying songs into SONAR, and making hay. If something comes from any of it, then we'll get the attornies involved to hammer out the details.

So my answers to the 2 issues:

1. If the actual tracks I played ended up on a song that met with commercial success, I would expect to get album credit - and at least the going rate players fee, but NOT much more than that.

2. I expect no writer's credit - unless a signature violin lick was deemed too crucial to leave out. Again, the lawyers would be involved there to determine % of such credit. Other intricacies and scenarios described by others inthis thread would also need attorney attention.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Cheers!
 
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