Codenser Mic for Grand Piano

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JacobShah

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Sorry 4 posting again, along with our church's venture to the digital age we will need a better sounding piano mic(currently using cheap handheld cardiod). It's a medium sized grand piano. So what would be best, a small diaphram or large? Something like an Pencil Instrument mike or an MXL Condenser mic? Thnx in advance, Jacob
 
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Beyer MC-930's and Senn. MKH 8040's are a common mention for piano. As a stereo pair since piano takes up a lot of real-estate when close micing. Perhaps an Oktava MK-012 pair might be the cheaper option. Or not.
 
The problem with grand piano is that it's like the elephant and the blind men. It's *huge*. If you put a microphone far enough away from the piano to pick up the whole soundboard, you have to increase the gain, and you pick up everything else in the room. If you are using the mics for live sound, it's a feedback nightmare. You really need to use 2 or even 3 mics. Some people use pressure zone mics (aka boundary mics) on the inside of the lid. I've never had much luck with that. There's 2 ways I know that work fairly well. One is to use a pair of omnis, like the little Naiants, close to the soundboard from above, and reduce the gain to avoid feedback. One on the lower third of the soundboard, around the middle of the strings, the other on the upper third. The other is to use a pair of cardioids, in the same position, but farther from the strings, say 18" (lid open). Very good dynamics can work for this too. I've had very good luck with a pair of AKG C2000B's, which were designed for live orchestral sound reinforcement. I've also had very good luck with AKG D3800 tripower, which is a *not* crappy handheld stage dynamic mic. It's too unforgiving for most vocalists, in my experience, but it *rocks* on piano. Good Luck-Richie
 
Strangely enough, the most effective grand piano sound I've gotten for live reinforcement was with a pair of Shure SM81s (medium-diaphragm cardioid condensors) 8-12" off the strings just behind the hammers, with the lid on full stick.

I've gotten a better sound using U87s or 414s...but getting that sound to sit (and fit) in the mix while avoiding feedback took a good bit of massaging, whereas the SM81s worked almost effortlessly.

I won't use a PZM for live acoustic piano unless you hold a gun to my head.
 
What Bob Ross has described above with the SM81's is almost exactly what I do with the C2000B's. Both the C2000B and the SM81 or used extensively on live sound stages for the same reason- they are feedback resistant. and still sound good.-Richie
 
I disagree about PZMs, they are perfect live. I just wouldn't put them under a lid unless it was on full stick. With the lid closed, put them on top just behind the music rack holdery-guy. Natural sound, no fuss, no muss.
 
I love the results you get from 2 AT3035s...but if this recording is being done durring a live service you might go with a set of nice SDC like the SM81s or maybe AT4041 mics...just because the AT3035s are big enough to be distracting to the people.
 
Those are probubly great for all we know...do you have any videos online of them being used in that application...that might sell us on them better.

There used to be bunch of clips on his site. Don't know what happened to them.
 
apl said:
There used to be bunch of clips on his site. Don't know what happened to them.

They were keeping me from improving my products. I am constantly improving stuff, but I lack the funds to hire an orchestra on a regular basis, so I'd leave the old samples up. But nobody seems willing to believe me when I said that the new stuff sounds the same but better. So, no clips.

Alot of companies just use youtube.

I do use Youtube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld0L6iL_wOc&feature=channel_page
 
Strangely enough, the most effective grand piano sound I've gotten for live reinforcement was with a pair of Shure SM81s (medium-diaphragm cardioid condensors) 8-12" off the strings just behind the hammers, with the lid on full stick.

I've gotten a better sound using U87s or 414s...but getting that sound to sit (and fit) in the mix while avoiding feedback took a good bit of massaging, whereas the SM81s worked almost effortlessly.

I won't use a PZM for live acoustic piano unless you hold a gun to my head.

To me using a pair of SM81's for pno isn't strange, it's very normal.

I read once in Mix about someone using them for Stevie Wonder's piano.

For sure U87's sound better but the Shures are smoother. For a laugh once I took a KM84 to a gig - it was unusable... they pick up a mouse fart from down the street!
 
I was the FOH person for our church's Contemporary Service for 1.5 years using a Yamaha MC7L Digital Mixer. Our Piano is a Steinway Concert Grand.
See photo: http://www.buzardorgans.com/opus37.html
I brought in my sE Z3300A LDC and placed it "just behind the music rack holdery-guy" with the lid up one notch and it sounded incredible. We had been using a pair of audio techica SDCs and they did a nice job but the Z3300A LDC was a "home-run" for us. Wish I had 2 of them.
My 2 cents....
 
Depends on the budget...good ribbons cost $1500 up.

And good SDC's and LDC cost equally as much. So the point is?

The ribbons I ended up using in the mix were modded (M.Joly) 205's and with shock mounts and everything, cost me around $325 apiece. I liked them much better than the Coles for that ap.
 
The engineers that record the Steely Dan records used the Shure KSM32 on all instruments...on the last 2 CDs...Eddie Kramer rated it as high as an u47 for instruments in a recent artical...and it is a $500 mic new.
 
To me using a pair of SM81's for pno isn't strange, it's very normal.

I read once in Mix about someone using them for Stevie Wonder's piano.

I saw the "Making of Bat out of hell" and they were used on Jim Stienman's piano...thats a pretty good endorcement too...they got a great sound.
 
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