Clipping, voice and guitar

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vagabond

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Hello everyone.

I've been reading many previous posts looking for possible answers or similar cases as mine but could find none, so I would be grateful if anyone can answer my question.

I want to record acoustic guitar and vocals simultaneously.

I record with a PC. I have the following setup:

Microphone : Audio-Technica (AT) 4047 / SV
Preamp: Focusrite Voicemaster
Soundcard: Turtlebeach Montegro 1
Software: CoolEditPro 1.2

I know the fundamentals of recording but I would still consider myself a beginner. However, I'm really not so interested in recording as I am in just playing and getting something that sounds halfway what I'm looking for.

My problem is mainly clipping from the guitar. I've tried using the preamp's compressor but it makes the sound ugly. It ends up sounding thin or unbalanced. I've also tried the mic's basscut feature, the equalizing feature on the preamp, and the low filter on the preamp; all to no avail. Cutting the bass tends to make the sound too sterile or distant and barely helps the clipping problem. I've also tried different mic positions. I set it nearly in line with the 12th fret and about 1 to 1 ½ feet away.

After much tinkering I found the only good warm sound is when the gain is turned up high and no compression or modifications added. However this only works if I sing separately and play soft guitar tracks. I simply can't get the same emotion doing it this way though. I need to do them together.

I've tried to play with the compressor in CoolEditPro but I just have no clue. It just seems to screw it up even more.

I just want a real to life sound; no effects, noticable reverb, or the like. If I try to do both(vocals and guitar) simultaneously I don't capture the full sound of the guitar and if I start soft and then get loud halfway I ruin the track with the clipping from the guitar. I'd like to be able to start with picking and perhaps do a bit of strumming halfway and not have to worry about clipping.

It becomes very frustrating and I almost don't want to record because I know how much of a headache it will be to get it just right. I can't sing and play at my best because I'm constantly worrying whether or not I'm clipping the track or not. I have made some decent recordings but they take much longer and require more fussing about than I'm interested in. I'd rather be spending that time perfecting the take.

Should I possibly get a separate compressor and microphone for the guitar? Do I have the wrong microphone for the job? When I bought the microphone, about two years ago, I was told it would do what I wanted. I've also read elsewhere that my microphone is suited for recording guitar and vocals. Perhaps they meant separately? I don't know. I knew nothing about recording at the time of the purchase, I just took their advice.

So now I really just don't know what I need or should do and I don't want to buy any unnecessary equipment.

If all else fails, my current plan of action is to buy something along the lines of a Shure sm-58 or 57 mic for the guitar, buy a good compressor, and a separate preamp. For the vocals just a new mic and keep the current preamp. Is that necessary though?

I like the sound of my current mic but it just doesn't seem to work when doing both guitar and vocals simultaneously. Perhaps I could keep it to catch subtleties…I could place it a few feet away in combination with the other mics. But then I would need even more equipment so I suppose I would just not use it and that seems to be such a waste.

I'm really just not sure where the problem lies exactly (my guess is lack of a good compressor) and would appreciate any help in getting the best I can out of this equipment or advice on what I should buy to get the right sound. Thanks.
 
let me get this straight

So, just so I understand, are you trying to record a decent vocal track, guitar track and engineer the process all by yourself?

I think you may be trying to take on more than I would suggest.

I'm also a beginner here but I would suggest tracking one thing at a time if you're trying to engineer everything yourself. This should give you the freedom of mind to monitor your levels on both your playing and your singing. Following a lead sheet also allows you to pay more attention to the recording process.

I've dealt with some artists that felt they couldn't perform one part without the other and, if that's the case, I would then suggest you concentrate really hard and learn. It'll just make you that much better of an artist.

mm

and if all of that doesn't convince you, have you tried tracking the thin rolled-off guitar twice and then doing vocals on top of that?
 
thanks, but...

thanks for reading and replying... however...

I have tried what you mentioned, separating the tracks, and I just don't feel it is as good as doing them simultaneously. I can do it however, and do do it when it feels right. However, playing and singing is not where the problem is. I also don't want to play two guitar tracks...that just seems cheesy in my opinion. The only way I would use 2 tracks is if they were the same track played stereo and panned.

My problem is in just getting the damn equipment to not screw up my recording. Mainly I need advice on what I should buy to fix the problem or how to set up my equipment differently to get the right sound. Thanks though.
 
The best way I've found to get a good, live, vox & guitar take with one mic is to place the mic 4-5' out from your position 2-3' above the guitar aimed down between your head and the guitar.
Then add a little gentle compression to the recorded take.
Some people will definately disagree with me - but hell, works for me.

The best "raw" example of this technique is "Your Drugs are as Bad as Mine" @ my mp3.com site.
 
You are probably expecting too much out of your setup. You should at least use two mics. I've played around with one mic for singer/guitar and it can sound usable for documenting a song but it will rarely sound great.

One thing to try is to record a live scratch track with guitar and vocals then overdub them again seperately and ditch the original track.
 
i would back texroadkill's suggestion.........if you are doing both at once, you really need 2 mics to get any sort of good recording..........also, i've never heard of a turtle beach sound card........is this card made for recording, or is just a standard card........if it isn't a good card, i can almost guarantee that is whats causing the clipping.......bad soundcards can't take a very high level in with out clipping, where as a good one can........again, i've never heard of this card, but it could be the problem.........tell me more about the card
 
"Qui va la j't'en prie?"

Maybe getting yourself a cheap mixing deck should do the trick.
I happen to sometimes record accoustic and vocals on one track in Cool Edit PRO though using 2 tracks on the deck....(not to mention the rest of the equipment but here it aint relevant.).

And the Audio Technica WILL certainly do the job since I own one meself!

Try to find a 2-tracker or something like that if you dont wanna play around with compressor/limiter/expander and stuff.
Then just plug the deck straight into your sound card et voila.

Good luck.
 
...

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. I think I know what I should do now.

Texroadkill, you are right about it sounding like a document. I don’t understand your suggestion though…what do you mean by a scratch recording, just a raw take?

Powderfinger, I think you hit the nail on the head. You may be very right about the soundcard. I should have figured as such…and all this time messing with my equipment. I didn’t think you could overload it though. I never really thought about it as the problem… it’s not a bad card but I don’t think it’s meant to be used for “quality” recording now that you mention it. I bought this system back in ‘98 and the card was considered good at that time, though perhaps for gaming and audio playback.

I was looking around on the internet and found that RME makes good cards for serious audio. I think I’ll try replacing the soundcard before anything else.

In the meantime I’ll try jitteringjim’s suggestion.

cool#9, I probably won’t buy a mixer since I am doing very simple one input, perhaps two soon, recordings but thanks for the advice. I agree with you about the mic, I can hear the potential it has. How do you use your mic? How do you position it and such?

If I were to buy a dynamic mic for the guitar and use the current condenser mic for the voice what would be the best position for the condenser? Should I buy a new vocal mic as well that isolates the voice and leaves as much of the guitar out as possible so that both mics pick up only what they are supposed to? Or would the sound of the guitar on the AT mic be fine or even good when mixed with the guitar mic?

What would you recommend as a good guitar preamp and condenser? Or should I just skip that and buy a good mixer as cool#9 suggested?

BTW, are there any good books you would recommend? I have one called Home Recording Power but it falls short on micing acoustic guitar and has no section on micing both guitar and vocals simultaneously. Perhaps something for real study?

Sorry for all the questions but I really need to figure this out properly now that I have the time. Thanks again.
 
I don't know anything about sound cards/recording software,but common sense tells me there's an "input level" setting.It occurs to me that having that set too low and/or turning the gain up too high on your preamp will cause clipping.
On the issue of recording voice and guitar,I like recording them simultaneously,too.Using two mics is the way to go for me.With good headphones you can do it with one mic if you're careful and do a lot of experimenting in placing the mic.And pay constant attention to the levels.And practice a lot.
But you may get great takes where either the voice or guitar is too loud or two quiet.Which is frustrating.With each recorded on a seperate track,you can mix them after,and concentrate on the song when you're performing it.
I'd advise getting another mic for vocals and recording onto 2 tracks.If your preamp is 2 channel,you're set.If it's mono,you'll need another preamp or a little mixer that has decent mic preamps.
There's some vocal bleed into the guitar mic,and vice versa.But who cares.There are ways to minimize it.It was good enough for Bob Dylan's first 3 or 4 albums,and every other folk and blues singer in the 60's.The ones that weren't using just one mic,that is.
What mics and where to place them is another thread.
Meanwhile,find out what's causing the clipping.
 
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