Clipping--HELP!!

[Greykitkat36]

Ok. So I have a Behringer PMH880S Powered Mixer--8 Channels, etc. I recorded my band's live show today using the Main L and R outputs fromthe mixer and sending them to my Boss BR1600CD Digital Recorder. The recording clipped like crazy, all distorted. What happened? Every other mixer I've used has been able to record using the Main Outputs and generally it comes out pretty decent...so then what was done wrong?

Going through the Behringer was 2 vocals, Keys, Acoustic, Kick Drum, Overhead drum mic.

The recording volume (aka Input volume) on my recorder was down all the way, and the meters weren't even coming close to 0db. At the show the PA was not clipping live either.

 

[Cosmic]

Well, there are only so many variables:

Did the mics overload? (Guess not, since you say the PA was clean)
Did the pre-amps on the mixer overload? (Not if the PA was being fed by the mixer.)
Did the inputs on the recorder get overloaded from the mixer outputs (A/D converters clipping)? (This might be it.)

What makes me suspicious in your post is that you say "the recording volume on the recorder was all the way down." This should never have to be so if your entire recording chain is properly gain-staged.
Inputs on every unit in the chain should float nicely somewhere in the middle, level-wise, with room to adjust up or down.

The mixer should be sending out line-level (NOT amplified mains) which the recorder should receive as line-level in, either through a set of dedicated line-inputs, or through a set of mic/line variable inputs trimmed all the way to line level.
With that, you should have some playing room on the levels going into the recorder, and it definitely shouldn't distort unless you drive the trims on the recorder up towards mic-level.

There should be no need to have it "all the way down" unless you are in fact sending line from the mixer to mic-in level on the recorder, which is a huge no-no and a prescription for exactly what you describe in the way of distortion.

Check your levels at every stage and see if you overlooked something in what I described above.

C.

 

[Greykitkat36]

Thanks for your help...but....What's the difference between a mic-in input and a line-level input? I thought they were the same thing. How could I stop the A/D Converter clipping? Cause that sounds like the best reason for the distortion.

 

[Greykitkat36]

Well, there are only so many variables:



" unless you are in fact sending line from the mixer to mic-in level on the recorder, which is a huge no-no and a prescription for exactly what you describe in the way of distortion.


C.

Well, I believe that is what I did. Though the inputs on my recorder are all Mic/Line Inputs, so I don't think that was the problem.

 

[Rokket]

Well, I believe that is what I did. Though the inputs on my recorder are all Mic/Line Inputs, so I don't think that was the problem.

Is there a switch or button that lets you chose one or the other? I am not familiar with that mixer. When I was buying a mixer, Behringer was dumped on by so many people on this and other forums, I stayed away from them.

 

[Cosmic]

Line level is much hotter than mic level, in terms of signal strength (voltage) so line level will always blow away mic level when hooked together.

Does your recorder have either:
a 'trim' control (usually at the top of the surface, above the XLR inputs) that allows you to gradually change the input level from 'mic' to 'line' level.
Or:
A pushbutton that goes between the same two settings?

Or barring that, is there such a thing as two dedicated 'line' inputs on the back? The connectors may be different, but that can be dealt with.

If there aren't and your recorder only has 'mic' level inputs, you will have to buy two 'pads'.
They are little tubes with XLR connectors at both ends, so they can be inserted into the recorder input and then have the line-level connectors from the mixer hooked into the other end.
The purpose of the pads is to drop the hotter line-level signal down to mic-level so your recorder can handle it correctly without clipping.

But check the recorder first and see if there aren't any switches that allow the XLR inputs to be switched between the two levels. I'd be surprised if the machine didn't have that.

C.

 

[shortedaman]

the boss br1600 has both line in and xlr 1/4 in. i believe you should of recorded into the br1600 via either the headphone out on the mixer or the line outs.

 

[mixsit]

..The recording volume (aka Input volume) on my recorder was down all the way, and the meters weren't even coming close to 0db. At the show the PA was not clipping live either.

Interesting the recorder didn't show the problem.
Maybe a test to see where and at what point in level it gets into trouble.

 

[mattr]

Were the mixer outputs running at +4dBu pro line-level and the recorder inputs running at -10dBv consumer line-level? In this case, something that wasn't clipping on the mixer meters could still easily be overloading the recorder inputs. I think this equates to a 12db difference in signal level.

Secondly, you're never going to get brilliant live recordings from the stereo FOH mix anyway so I wouldn't stress too much about it The live mix needed to suit the situation, room, and stage levels prior to sound reinforcement, is going to be completely different to what you expect in a recording. If you then start worrying about how the recordings will sound, you'll probably sacrifice the quality of the live sound. Multitrack is the way to go...

 

[Greykitkat36]

Were the mixer outputs running at +4dBu pro line-level and the recorder inputs running at -10dBv consumer line-level? In this case, something that wasn't clipping on the mixer meters could still easily be overloading the recorder inputs. I think this equates to a 12db difference in signal level.

Secondly, you're never going to get brilliant live recordings from the stereo FOH mix anyway so I wouldn't stress too much about it The live mix needed to suit the situation, room, and stage levels prior to sound reinforcement, is going to be completely different to what you expect in a recording. If you then start worrying about how the recordings will sound, you'll probably sacrifice the quality of the live sound. Multitrack is the way to go...

I know multitrack is the way to go..but I simply don't have enough mics,cables and stands to record everyone individually. Obviously the best thing to do would be to buy cables that split so that one can go to the FOH and one can go to the recorder. But those are pricey.

 

[mattr]

I found the specs for the Boss...

GUITAR/BASS jack: -10 dBu
MIC 1-8 jacks (XLR): -40 dBu
INPUT 1-8 jacks: -10 dBu

If the mixer is outputting at pro line level, that might be your problem.

I know multitrack is the way to go..but I simply don't have enough mics,cables and stands to record everyone individually. Obviously the best thing to do would be to buy cables that split so that one can go to the FOH and one can go to the recorder. But those are pricey.

That Behringer unit doesn't have them, but do you have access to a desk with direct-outs (its a stab in the dark, but sometimes you can beg and borrow for the use of stuff )? These make it really easy to tap off individual channels without needing really expensive microphones splitters. You can also crudely use inserts as unbalanced direct-outs by only pushing the cable in halfway, but this is only really a temporary fix and not something to be relied upon.

 

[NYMorningstar]

For live recording you might look at using the boss for your mixing and sending a stereo line out to the PA amp and skip the Behringer all together.

 

[Greykitkat36]

For live recording you might look at using the boss for your mixing and sending a stereo line out to the PA amp and skip the Behringer all together.

We've done that before...the recordings come out great, but the problem is that we can't get that loud live..The PA even at full volume isn't really putting out enough,

 

[NYMorningstar]

We've done that before...the recordings come out great, but the problem is that we can't get that loud live..The PA even at full volume isn't really putting out enough,

I'd suggest you have a problem either with gain staging or your PA then. How loud does one need an acoustic?

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yo Greykitkat! I have 2 observations, and one suggestion. First, as you have already been informed, mic level and line level are 2 different animals. You need to be sending 2 line outs from the mixer to 2 line ins on the recorder. That's just a matter of configuring your recorder so the variable inputs are set for "line". Or- it may be that each channel has an XLR 3-pin input, and a 1/4" input, in which case, the 1/4" jacks are the line inputs. That's pretty easy. Secondly, you are also learning that all line levels were not created equal. "Consumer" line level is designated as -10dBV and "pro" line level is designated as +4dBu. Plugging a +4 output into a -10 input will produce exactly the symptoms you are describing. -10 is what is output by most home stereo equipment or pretty close to what is output by headphone jacks and +4 is what you get out of most recording and live gear. First, check to make sure your recorder doesn't have some switches near the inputs that say +4/-10. Because of the specs you are listing, I suspect you don't have those. If not, here's a nifty, not-too-expensive box which can make all the difference:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=3104&Category=Recording_Accessories

This changes 2 channels of +4 to -10, or the other way around. It will work with balanced or unbalanced 1/4" lines, and may very well be the instant solution to your problem. Best of luck-Richie

 

[data_river]

Hi: You may fix some of the gain problems by adjusting the gain of the PMH880s front end mic input. There's a "how to do it" on my site:http://members.cox.net/data_river/pmh880s/index.html

I hope this is a little less expensive than an external preamp.
Cheers, Steve

 

[Greykitkat36]

Which would you suggest is better?

A. Record using the BOSSBR1600 from line outs of the mixer (FOH).

OR


B. Use the BossBr1600CD as a mixer and then send the lineouts to the mixer, then out to the speakers. That way I can multitrack record at the same time.

 

[NYMorningstar]

It all depends on the mixers capabilities but it's a good rule of thumb to keep your recording chain as short as possible.

If you cannot get individual tracks off the mixer and can get only a stereo feed then use the Boss as the mixer(assuming the Boss's pre's aren't crap). You'll retain alot more control that way.

Assuming the mixer can send individual tracks and has equal or better pre's than the Boss and you want to use the mixer for the effects, record using the BOSSBR1600 from line outs of the mixer (FOH) but record the signal dry.

From what data river is saying about the PMH880, you may want to replace it.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Ok. So I have a Behringer PMH880S Powered Mixer--8 Channels, etc. I recorded my band's live show today using the Main L and R outputs fromthe mixer and sending them to my Boss BR1600CD Digital Recorder.

Unless you're using the wrong terminology here, your problem isn't that you have a mic/line mismatch, it's that you're trying to send 400W@4ohms out to your recorder .

If you're using the 1/4" jacks on the front panel labeled "Main Out", I believe those are alternative post-amplifier outputs designed for non-powered speakers that don't accept the standard Speakon connections that the mixer outputs from the back panel.

You should instead be using the "Rec Out" RCA jacks positioned just to the left of the "Main Out" jacks; those will output levels consistent with the inputs on your recorder.

G.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Listen to Southside Glen. He understands your mixer better than I do. Duh! A *powered* mixer! The main line outs drive speakers, they are not any kind of line out. He is, of course, right. "Tape out" is a -10 line out, and your -10 line ins should be very happy with it.-Richie