Click Tracks

[Chibi Nappa]

Can you find an example that isn't 40 years old? As wonderful as that stuff is, the world of music has changed several times since then. The expectations are different now.

This is certainly a fair thing to say.

But right now recorded popular music sounds much, much worse than it did 40 years ago. I put zero stock in current "expectations" considering where they have gotten us.



To clarify, my position is not anti-click.
All I'm saying is that there are situations where a straight pop song can come out better if you turn the click off. Those situations are rare. But as a producer, you need to be aware of things like that and keep the possibility open. When production decisions are made "just because"... then we end up with today's general state of pop recording.

Don't Autotune just because you can and the pitch is visually off.
Don't insert a compressor on "track x" just because you can.
Don't sample replace just because you can and the replacement is technically richer/cleaner.
Don't snap to a grid just because you can and the note is visually off.
Don't always use a metronome just because the tempo is perfect.
And for God's sake don't day ANYTHING just because the other guy is doing it and you have to keep up.

Hold off until something is an actual real problem. Each of the above may make a song better. But get too many of them together and you end up with less than the sum of the parts. Sometimes much less. And all of a sudden the entire pop industry is grating and fatiguing and boring with no musicality.


Remember, I totally agree that straight Pop/rock benefits from a click 99% of the time. It is the refusal the believe that there is ever a situation that benefits from its absence that bothers me.

 

[moresound]

A band should practice with a click then come time to be in the studio don't use it! They should be practiced enough to make the recording what it is, a moment in time, don't mess with it.

 

[miroslav]

This is certainly a fair thing to say.

But right now recorded popular music sounds much, much worse than it did 40 years ago. I put zero stock in current "expectations" considering where they have gotten us.

Hey, you wanna talk about "current expectations"...there's a thread/poll about Amps VS Sims...and guess what, the sims are getting more votes at this point!
I'm an amp man.

Remember, I totally agree that straight Pop/rock benefits from a click 99% of the time. It is the refusal the believe that there is ever a situation that benefits from its absence that bothers me.

OK...but I honestly don't see a single post in this thread where anyone has refused to believe that.
As much as I've used a click forever in the studio...I don't have a *problem* playing without one or having others play without one when recording them...
...I just don't see what the problem is playing WITH one!
It's been agreed that some music might be awkward to use a click with, as it has odd/many sig changes...etc.
But you know...that still doesn't say all those sigs shouldn't each have solid time…even without using a click.
And I have raise an eyebrow when I see sloppy time being called “human time”…

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Find the click

OK let's play a game. Again for the record, I do not oppose click tracks at all. I just want to see if you can determine which song used a click. Don't pull into your software and analyze it, just casually listen like you would if it was on your ipod. You don;t have to listen all the way through, there are no major screws up to give anything away. Good luck!

 

[RAMI]

OK let's play a game. Again for the record, I do not oppose click tracks at all. I just want to see if you can determine which song used a click. Don't pull into your software and analyze it, just casually listen like you would if it was on your ipod. You don;t have to listen all the way through, there are no major screws up to give anything away. Good luck!

Well, they all sound tight to me, so either way, I guess that proves your point.

My guess is: 1 no, 2 yes, 3 yes, 4 no. No.1 is the least tight to me, But that doesn't tell me if a click was used or not.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

I'll give it a couple hours before I tell. By the way me and the guys over here in my little studio pop in your Little Purple Circles album from time to time.

 

[RAMI]

I'll give it a couple hours before I tell. By the way me and the guys over here in my little studio pop in your Little Purple Circles album from time to time.

I'm very proud of that CD.


.......Actually, you're mixing me up with Supercreep. I'm a big Little Purple Circles fan, too, though!!!!!

 

[undrgrnd studio]

I'm very proud of that CD.


.......Actually, you're mixing me up with Supercreep. I'm a big Little Purple Circles fan, too, though!!!!!

Oh OK, for whatever reason I was thinking it was you. I'm not on here that much so I only casually know some of the guys here. Sorry man, it is a great album though. I'll have to check out your tunes. Maybe you can do a click or not post as well. It looks like you are trying to sell your CD though, so maybe just post clips.

 

[RAMI]

Oh OK, for whatever reason I was thinking it was you. I'm not on here that much so I only casually know some of the guys here. Sorry man, it is a great album though. I'll have to check out your tunes. Maybe you can do a click or not post as well. It looks like you are trying to sell your CD though, so maybe just post clips.

Hehe...No problem, man. No shame in being mistaken for those guys. They're a great band.

I got no problem posting my songs, but I think anyone that knows me knows that I use a click on everything. I think I said it about 5 times in this thread alone.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Listening to some RAMI now. Complex heavy rock. It's good. What mic are you using on Out of This World for lead vocals? Also, are you using triggers on the drums or are they acoustic?

 

[RAMI]

Listening to some RAMI now. Complex heavy rock. It's good. What mic are you using on Out of This World for lead vocals? Also, are you using triggers on the drums or are they acoustic?

Thanx a lot.

I only have one vocal mic, unfortunately. An AKG C3000b. The drums are all acoustic miced with 4 mics (snare sm57, kik D-112, overheads AKG C1000's).

 

[grimtraveller]

Hold off until something is an actual real problem.

...I just don't see what the problem is playing WITH one!

Originally posted by Farview; Obviously there are no absolutes.


It's not just the music that has changed, the procedures of recording have changed drastically. The caliber of musicians that are recording has changed. The caliber of engineers have changed. The equipment, spaces, and editing expectations have all changed so drastically that if you took most people that are recording themselves now and put them back into 1973, they would be lost.

Likewise, if took someone from 1973 and brought them here, they would be a little confused as well.

Yeah, there has been a fantastic 'progression' in recording techniques over the last 60 to 70 years. But there are still a huge number of now old/older engineers that have been around between 20 and 50 years and they've changed with the technology or more correctly, they've added the technology to their existing arsenal and their bag of tricks gets bigger and bigger. It's interseting checking out what they say because so many of them use what they initially learned as their foundation. And as a result, they are versatile, not highly gifted one trick ponies. I don't think a studio of yesteryear would actually be that alien to many of us and I've not heard of anyone (I'm not saying no one has, just that I've not heard of any) that's quit engineering/production coz they don't like modern methods and hankers for "the old days".
It is a simple historical fact that ever since Edison's stereo experiments, there have been recording innovators and mavericks. And there still are.
Playing to metronomic devices isn't new. It's how loads of people learned to play guitars, drums etc many moons ago. In a recording sense, if it's a requirement to play to one, a given, come what may, I can understand why some people might get shirty about it. Think about it for a minute......
Of course, we're home recorders and some of our circumstances are different. I expect a drummer or percussionist to be able to play with skill, panache, a little surprize figure or two.......and stay in time ! And I personally refuse to stop expecting that. That said, I think of them as tools (the click, not the drummer ! ). They make great servants.......but poor masters.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Thanx a lot.

I only have one vocal mic, unfortunately. An AKG C3000b. The drums are all acoustic miced with 4 mics (snare sm57, kik D-112, overheads AKG C1000's).

Woah, those drums sound phenomenal. What pre are they going through.

 

[RAMI]

Woah, those drums sound phenomenal. What pre are they going through.

Thanx alot, man. The only thing that goes through a pre is the kik, which goes through a Focusrite Voicemaster Pro. Everything else, including the pre-amped kik, goes straight into my TASCAM 2488.

 

[grimtraveller]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but RAMI's stuff is one of the best adverts for keeping standalones alive.
Just as a side issue, I can't tell most of the time if something was recorded to a click. They've been using them in movies almost since talking movies began.

 

[Paulie Jay]

I'm sure I'll get beaten with a large stick for saying this, but The Stones are kind of sloppy. It's part of their schtick.

Can you find an example that isn't 40 years old? As wonderful as that stuff is, the world of music has changed several times since then. The expectations are different now.

If you were a musician in 1973 and someone was telling you that you should do something a certain way because that's what Bing Crosby did in 1933, would you really take that advice seriously?

I should state that I'm not anti click (if I haven't already), I've only mentioned my examples in support of the person who said that fluctuating around the tempo doesn't have to be a bad thing if the band moves as a unit . They were an illustration of the point - not an argument against using clicks!

But as a side note, can you imagine if Honky Tonk Woman had been written and recorded in 2010 by an up and coming band who's producer insisted that they play it to a rigid click? One of the great things about that song is the final couple of rousing choruses. I've played the song on stage with drummers who refuse to speed it up because they don't want people to think that they can't keep time, and it always drags out like gumby pulling a tub of taffy through molasses.

 

[miroslav]

OK let's play a game. Again for the record, I do not oppose click tracks at all. I just want to see if you can determine which song used a click. Don't pull into your software and analyze it, just casually listen like you would if it was on your ipod. You don;t have to listen all the way through, there are no major screws up to give anything away. Good luck!

I don't think any of them used a click..but that's if I only go by how tight they are to my ears.
There is drift in the first three...the last one feels tighter, but I think it's only because it's so up-tempo...but there are at least three spots where it sounds like the beat lags, though only for a moment...and that CAN happen with or without click...which has been my whole point about *groove*.
You DO NOT have to hit every song beat exactly on every click beat...that's NOT the point of a click track!
It's there mainly to keep the overall tempo consistent throughout the song, but you can adjust your attack and release on some of the beats for *groove* purposes and still stay with the tempo.

Also…it’s not just about if one can hear tempo drift…it’s also how it feels to the players. Not to mention, if you are doing very up-tempo dance music, then even the audience can feel drift once they get their own timing going out on the dance floor, so when tempo lags or speeds up, your feet will feel it…you almost have to shuffle a couple of steps to adjust.

But we keep going around in circles…you don’t have use one if you have a real tight band. Otherwise, for doing solo tracks, IMO it’s almost a necessity…and if a band is not super tight, but wants to sound tight…it’s also a necessity.
You can figure out where you fit in-between all that!

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Answers

OK nobody's playing, so I'll answer.

1. Recorded with solo drums first by memory, no click
2. Click, Guitar, Drums, the rest
3. Excellent Drummer with direct guitar scrap track, then overdubs. No click.
4. Full band, no click. Some overdubs.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

no click

Click. Almost certain when they fall off after the intro and catch back up.

no click

click

 

[Chibi Nappa]

OK nobody's playing, so I'll answer.

1. Recorded with solo drums first by memory, no click
2. Click, Guitar, Drums, the rest
3. Excellent Drummer with direct guitar scrap track, then overdubs. No click.
4. Full band, no click. Some overdubs.

You need more patience dude.

So... I was 3 for 4. Whatever that means.