Click Tracks

[miroslav]

Some people don't like the click sounds because they are to synthetic or they feel the click is too "accurate". I think this could best be compared to a drummer listening to the click instead of just going with it. The performance lags or sounds unnatural.

This is the heart of the issue.
Most people that haven't played with clicks enough...tend to listen to and focus on following the click....instead of just playing with it same as they would with other musicians!

All it takes is a bit of getting use to hearing the click...and then it "melts away" but still provides a timing reference. You are still able to drift/sway in and around the click's beat!!!

I don't really understand why the "adding other band members" thing seems to you like such a sure recipe for timing disaster if a click isn't used. I mean sure, if some or all of the band members completely suck... but with a modest level of ability I don't see how it HAS to be such a big deal.

It doesn't.
I already said...if the band is tight, it's not a problem.

As long as a song is well-rehearsed before it is recorded, any slight speed-ups or slow-downs will by that point be kind of "baked" into the song and therefore the other musicians should "feel" them coming when laying down their respective overdubs.

You are assuming that those speed-ups or slow-downs are always going to happen at the same spot and in the same degree by every member.
Sure...if you actually rehears it that way...but often speed fluctuation happen randomly.
Sometimes it takes one member to lag behind or speed up in a critical transition, and it will force everyone else to do that same, but randomly.
It's not like everyone will slow down or speed up note for note in unison...
...and that is NOT *groove*, IMO...that's sloppy playing.
Now...you can say it's not bad enough to be noticed, and that may be so, but to me, if it's noticeable, I'm not going to call it *groove*...and I'm going to then turn on a click to prevent that.
That way, if one guy goes off...the other are hopefully playing with the click and not following that one guy.

Hey..it's no different with tuning/singing. Some guys can't hear when they are 20-30 cents off, so they don't see a need to tune.

But I’m not sure why or what people are really objecting to.
If you think the timing is tight enough without a click…then don’t use it.
For songs that have a solid, steady beat, with no timing changes/transitions…I prefer that beat to be tight, which a click will help with…and that doesn’t mean it has to be stiff/rigid/robotic.
It’s only like that when people play it like that.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

AFA doing music that is not "click friendly"...total improvisational stuff...19th Century classical...or whatever.
Fine…turn it off.
I'm just talking about basic Rock/Pop music.

Even certain Rock/Pop songs. Off the top of my head: Compare some of Nirvana's live recordings on nights when they were really "on" (Reading Festival for example) to the same songs on "Nevermind". The human tempo gives the Reading songs more "life" than the studio recordings despite the inferior fidelity of the live sound sources in a concert setting.

And Nirvana isn't even really a good example...

 

[miroslav]

miroslav, the issue seems to be that you think a great professional band keeping time is equivalent to a metronome keeping time, so what's the point in not using a metronome?

But the thing is, a great professional band keeping their own time can sound much BETTER than they would if they were on a metronome. The best human time is more musical and enjoyable than electronically perfect time in certain songs.

The thing is such musicians are rare and not all types of songs benefit from human time, so many of us will never be in that situation. As somebody who has been in that situation: Trust me, there are definately times when the song comes out better when you turn the metronome off.

I think I've already agreed earlier that a tight band can play without a click and sound good doing it.
I'm talking about all the other times...and situations when it's not a full band playing/recording at the same time.

Seems to me, almost everyone in this thread mentions how they use a click when it's needed...and that's what I'm talking about.
But I'll tell you...a real tight band would never even flinch playing against a click...and they would sound just as good...because they would not chase the click! They would just use it as a reference point, and IMHO, that's what some people have a problem doing...hence they hate using clicks.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

You are assuming that those speed-ups or slow-downs are always going to happen at the same spot and in the same degree by every member.
Sure...if you actually rehears it that way...but often speed fluctuation happen randomly.
Sometimes it takes one member to lag behind or speed up in a critical transition, and it will force everyone else to do that same, but randomly.
It's not like everyone will slow down or speed up note for note in unison...
...and that is NOT *groove*, IMO...that's sloppy playing.

We are not talking about "guys who are really good musicians". We are talking about guys who have nothing in their life but music and family. Guys who do this and nothing but this. Guys who get in serious real-life "how will I pay the rent" trouble if they can't sit down in front of a piece of music they've never seen before and nail it a few minutes later.

These people do exist. They do form bands. And you better believe they make the slightest, subtlest tempo change happen in unison and with purpose.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

But I'll tell you...a real tight band would never even flinch playing against a click...

I agree, but this gets back to what I said a few posts ago. The best human time is not equivalent to a click, it is better!

They play the song to the click perfectly and naturally and it comes out great...but the point is it could have been even better.

and they would sound just as good...because they would not chase the click! They would just use it as a reference point...

It has nothing to do with chasing the click. The click isn't screwing them up. However, the click is limiting what they can do locking them in sub-optimal time, robbing them of the chance to subtly speed up and slow down.

 

[miroslav]

...the click is limiting what they can do locking them in sub-optimal time, robbing them of the chance to subtly speed up and slow down.

I understand what you are saying...and again, I agree that a really tight band has the ability to move as one and can sound good without a click.

BUT...how many of those do we deal with on any regular basis in the bars or in the home recording studio environment?

Also...is it not good to also NOT subtly speed up and slow down in every/all songs?
Why does it come off in these discussions like it’s always better to NOT have real tight timing???
It's a per musician, per song consideration.

But in talking about the ability to “subtly speed up and slow down”…IMO, that IS possible within the steady timing of a click…and then the click is there to bring you back on time.
I find that when players "subtly speed up and slow down"...it's only sometimes that it's done intentionally for "groove"...and other times, it's just one guy pulling everyone else off time.
Didn't you ever get that feeling like someone was tugging on your sleeve while you were playing...and you look back at the drummer with a "WTF?" expression on your face 'cuz you're feeling it should be a different tempo....?

But I don't want to beat on this (no pun intended) endlessly...
....we all have our views and angles, and in the end, if you think you are tight enough without a click...
...then just don't use one.

 

[Farview]

Some people don't like the click sounds because they are to synthetic or they feel the click is too "accurate". I think this could best be compared to a drummer listening to the click instead of just going with it. The performance lags or sounds unnatural.

This only happens when the drummer in question doesn't really know how to play to a click properly.

Some bands just have their drummer (who should be the one with the best timing ) put down a few bars of percussion - e.g. a shaker or something - to a click, then loop it and use it instead of the click. If it's done right and accurately, there is a more "natural" feel to it and the drummer may be able to get into "synchronized mode". He is now playing to his own timing which essentially is not true, since you can easily change that, but if the synchronization issues are more of a psychological nature, this simple trick may help and you still have the muted "real" click.

It's still the same thing, playing to a metronome. I prefer to use the cowbell sound in my DM5 to play drums to. Some people like a hihat sound or a clave, rimshot, stick click, etc... It doesn't make any difference what the sound of the metronome is. I'm pretty sure that most people are using motronome and click track interchangeably, it doesn't mean that you have to blay to that stupid beep that the daw makes.

 

[Farview]

They play the song to the click perfectly and naturally and it comes out great...but the point is it could have been even better.

That is a completely subjective statement that means nothing. If the artist plays the song as he intended and it comes out great, he's done. There is no better than that. The extra excitement that you personally feel when the tempo drifts might not be what the artist intended at all.


And there is still nothing stopping you from making (for example) the verse 130 bpm, the chorus 132 bpm, the bridge 129 bpm, etc... Sometimes it's the difference between doing something on purpose and doing it by accident.

 

[Paulie Jay]

Actually, that's not true. When it goes into 4/4, the click would be the same. It changes time signature but not tempo. I know what you're saying, though, but that's not good example of it.

EDIT: I apologize. I was wrong. Money definitely speeds up gradually in the solo parts. The song starts at about 124bpm and goes up to about 127-130bpm later. My mistake. Your example was good.

That's a deliberate time signature and tempo change. That wasn't an ebb and flow thing like people are talking about. You can do that with a click. Including the gradual speed up into the solo part.

Well here's another one - "Honky Tonk Woman", Rolling Stones. Builds in tempo the entire length of the song. Simply couldn't have done that had they been adhering to a strict click. Not that I'm anti-click by any means.

 

[Farview]

I'm sure I'll get beaten with a large stick for saying this, but The Stones are kind of sloppy. It's part of their schtick.

Can you find an example that isn't 40 years old? As wonderful as that stuff is, the world of music has changed several times since then. The expectations are different now.

If you were a musician in 1973 and someone was telling you that you should do something a certain way because that's what Bing Crosby did in 1933, would you really take that advice seriously?

 

[noisewreck]

I don't think I've ever written a song at 120 BPM.

Not saying you have or you haven't. Just that the example itself is not necessarily a random choice

For the rest of the stuff, we are pretty much in agreement and arguing different things. I am not saying that different people playing to "their own tempo" if you will, or not being able to lock in to each other is "having a groove"... It's just bad playing, period. And we are in agreement there. Invariably though, it will be exactly those people that will not be able to play to a click, be thrown off by it, and in general have issues.

All I am saying is that a click isn't gonna cure them

 

[grimtraveller]

I'm sure I'll get beaten with a large stick for saying this, but The Stones are kind of sloppy. It's part of their schtick.

Can you find an example that isn't 40 years old? As wonderful as that stuff is, the world of music has changed several times since then. The expectations are different now.

If you were a musician in 1973 and someone was telling you that you should do something a certain way because that's what Bing Crosby did in 1933, would you really take that advice seriously?

There's a certain amount of truth in this but in some ways highlights a trend I've noticed in increasing measure over the last 20 years or so........"the world of music has changed since then. The expectations are different now". Whose expectations ?
I notice that often,when something new appears, it threatens to blow aside much of what existed before precisely because the sheer number of it's adherents and their "enthusiasm" give the impression (some stated, some implied) that anything else that came before is simply now passe. And after a certain amount of time and rancour, people rediscover the old. That's simplifying it all somewhat, I accept, but I often have found myself wondering, why can't all these old and new ways sit alongside one another instead of the adherents of the old digging their heels in to prove old is the only and best way and the proponents of the new declaring anything old to be rubbish ? In a musical genre sense, classical and punk at either extreme show the folly of such thinking.
I'm not saying "this is what you're saying" so don't get me wrong. But, rightly or wrongly, it's easy to infer from your statement that there's only one way to go. People drum up 40 year old examples because there's a significant body of work that exists that millions of people have loved (and danced to ! ) and still do, in which clicks weren't used and the timing of the players wasn't an issue. That it is such an issue now is interesting, but it's important that we remember that this thread assumes we're talking in a home recording context, often with one or two people playing, sometimes self recording. It makes sense to use clicks if need be and it makes sense not to ! Playing to a click doesn't actually guarantee flawless time keeping anymore than not playing to one guarantees noticeable timing issues. It's like cooking. Many of my older relatives still use a fire or parafin to cook. Good luck to 'em. Some will not use a microwave. Bon chance. Either way, it makes little difference to the taste of the food.
Excercise choice ! They're just tools, not modes of being !!

 

[undrgrnd studio]

If I feel one timing while playing...and the drummer feels another...and the bass another...and NONE of us are actually *on time*...
...who should follow who?

OK, this is just ridiculous. Any musician worth his salt should fit in the pocket just fine. If you have people playing to a different tune (figuratively), then I would suggest trying new band members. I have played with so many different people over the years, and whenever I had a problem like that I would suggest that player go learn his chops.

I don't buy into the notion that a loose drummer should be the de-facto time keeper...no matter what.
Nor do I buy into the notion that ONLY the drummer is responsible for setting/holding time.
To me, a drummer is just another band member and drums are NOT the only instrument responsible for time keeping....everyone is....and everyone affects each other.
When that's the situation...you need an impartial, solid time reference...and that is a click.

If you are playing with a drummer. The drummer is absolutely going to hold everything together. Even if he is just playing some odd time signature around the other instruments. Yes, everybody will play off each other and if someone is not holding their own then you will have a problem. And at that point you either have to make sure your players are up to the task, or go ahead and lay down a click and see if that helps. But a click in the ear of a drummer doing an odd time signature might hinder more than help in many cases. I know I've run into that problem before. You end up wanting to hit on the down beat and end up missing your mark. Not always, but occasionally.

Most people seem to object to clicks because they are either unfamiliar to using them, or some just can't keep up with the tight timing of a click.

I don't agree with that. I only use a click when it's necessary. It seems like you're default is to go with a click. And on top of that, you want anybody you record to use one as well. If everybody needs a click all the time to stay in time, then there is something wrong with the talent. A click is only a tool. It's not a requirement.

The point here is...if you can play with a super tight drummer and look to him for time keeping...what's the difference between him and a click track AFA keeping up with the timing?


AFA doing music that is not "click friendly"...total improvisational stuff...19th Century classical...or whatever.
Fine…turn it off.
I'm just talking about basic Rock/Pop music.

I can play basic rock with no click. So can most of the musicians I collaborate with.

Again, a click is very useful tool. I use it myself when the situation calls for it. But I draw the line at making it a requirement or even near necessity. Say you want to record a new tune. You have an excellent drummer in your studio. You play the tune together with you on direct bass and you record the drummer. You listen back, and the drums are phenomenal. Why the hell would you waste your time programming a click and then forcing him to play to it? What's the point? What have you accomplished? Is the end result "better"?

 

[miroslav]

All I am saying is that a click isn't gonna cure them

I guess they didn't have the right teachers.
I never practiced without a metronome when learning stuff in my youth....then once it was learned, the metronome was turned off, but by then, the idea of solid tempo (not sloppy=groove ) was burned into my brain.

IMO..."groove" is more about playing slightly ahead or behind a solid tempo, and not so much about speeding up and slowing down the entire tempo all over the song, though you CAN have a section that is intentionally/dramatically sped up or slowed down…like a bridge or outro.
When a band speeds up and slows down randomly (even if they do it in unison) because one guy is pulling them off tempo….that’s not groove or “human time”…that’s sloppy time.

 

[miroslav]

You have an excellent drummer in your studio. You play the tune together with you on direct bass and you record the drummer. You listen back, and the drums are phenomenal. Why the hell would you waste your time programming a click and then forcing him to play to it? What's the point? What have you accomplished? Is the end result "better"?

NO...I would run the click WHILE we are both playing…and there is no wasted time “programming” a click…you just turn it on to the desired BPM.

What would be accomplished is a TIGHT tempo...and there is nothing ridiculous about that.
IMO...a tight tempo feels better than a loose one especially for most up-tempo music...no matter how great everyone *sounds* playing together. You get a nice *snap* to the rhythm when the tempo is tight...and YES...it makes a difference for a lot of Rock/Pop.
And really...how much of Rock/Pop uses "odd time signatures" with any regularity...???

And yes…a click is a tool that helps with keeping timing…on time.

And yes…I will ALWAYS use a click unless I get someone really having a meltdown over it…or it’s some totally weird, multi-signature, multi-tempo piece…in which case, it’s not going to be important about holding the same timing throughout.
I’ve had a few people initially object, mildly…but once we started playing…the click melted away into the background, and I haven’t yet run into anyone that out-and-out couldn’t play or refused to play to a click.
My god…it’s NO different than any other time keeping…be it a drummer or your foot tapping.

 

[RAMI]

Any musician worth his salt should fit in the pocket just fine.....
If you have people playing to a different tune (figuratively), then I would suggest trying new band members.....
The drummer is absolutely going to hold everything together....
I can play basic rock with no click.....

I agree with most of undrgnd's post, especially the lines I quoted.

It's the drummer's job to keep time and the rest of the band's job to follow the drummer. I've never experienced a band with 4 people pulling in "different directions". That's ludicrous, in my opinion.

Having said that, I don't agree with the sentiment that a click hinders or restrains a drummer from "grooving", assuming we're talking about someone who has practiced with a click for long enough. Speaking for myself, it's second nature because I've been doing it for so long and very often. I don't even really "hear" the click when I'm playing to one.

As far as speeding up and slowing down, that has nothing to do with "energy". A song can (and usually should) stay the same tempo and still vary in energy levels. That's not about speed, it's about dynamics and intensity. I'm sure there are lots of songs that seem to speed up, but were recorded to a click.

 

[miroslav]

It's the drummer's job to keep time and the rest of the band's job to follow the drummer. I've never experienced a band with 4 people pulling in "different directions". That's ludicrous, in my opinion..

I was making an extreme example about all four pulling in different directions...but are you telling me that as a drummer, you NEVER played with a guitarist or bassist that would drag or speed up regardless of YOUR tempo?
And...that you could not always "force" them to play in time...it could take a couple of measures for them to lock in with you again...?
One goes off time a bit and another one keys off him...meanwhile you the drummer, are trying to hold it tight.
That's never happened to you?
I'm talking about subtle time shifts...not dramatic slop. It may not be noticable to the audience, but it certainly is to the band...there's that mild drift for a couple of measures and the beat feels weak.

And while I agree it's primarily the drummer's role to keep time...there can be sections of songs where a different instrument is actually driving the beat...

Having said that, I don't agree with the sentiment that a click hinders or restrains a drummer from "grooving", assuming we're talking about someone who has practiced with a click for long enough. Speaking for myself, it's second nature because I've been doing it for so long and very often. I don't even really "hear" the click when I'm playing to one.

As far as speeding up and slowing down, that has nothing to do with "energy". A song can (and usually should) stay the same tempo and still vary in energy levels. That's not about speed, it's about dynamics and intensity. I'm sure there are lots of songs that seem to speed up, but were recorded to a click.

Yes...this is exactly what I'm getting at.
I too have been using a click forever!
I don't pay any conscious attention to it...but I do hear it and it does serve as a reference.
And I agree with you on the "groove" comments

 

[Farview]

There's a certain amount of truth in this but in some ways highlights a trend I've noticed in increasing measure over the last 20 years or so........"the world of music has changed since then. The expectations are different now". Whose expectations ?
I notice that often,when something new appears, it threatens to blow aside much of what existed before precisely because the sheer number of it's adherents and their "enthusiasm" give the impression (some stated, some implied) that anything else that came before is simply now passe. And after a certain amount of time and rancour, people rediscover the old. That's simplifying it all somewhat, I accept, but I often have found myself wondering, why can't all these old and new ways sit alongside one another instead of the adherents of the old digging their heels in to prove old is the only and best way and the proponents of the new declaring anything old to be rubbish ? In a musical genre sense, classical and punk at either extreme show the folly of such thinking.
I'm not saying "this is what you're saying" so don't get me wrong. But, rightly or wrongly, it's easy to infer from your statement that there's only one way to go. People drum up 40 year old examples because there's a significant body of work that exists that millions of people have loved (and danced to ! ) and still do, in which clicks weren't used and the timing of the players wasn't an issue. That it is such an issue now is interesting, but it's important that we remember that this thread assumes we're talking in a home recording context, often with one or two people playing, sometimes self recording. It makes sense to use clicks if need be and it makes sense not to ! Playing to a click doesn't actually guarantee flawless time keeping anymore than not playing to one guarantees noticeable timing issues. It's like cooking. Many of my older relatives still use a fire or parafin to cook. Good luck to 'em. Some will not use a microwave. Bon chance. Either way, it makes little difference to the taste of the food.
Excercise choice ! They're just tools, not modes of being !!

Obviously there are no absolutes.

But 40 years ago, the bands were generally all recorded at once, with a few things being overdubbed later. That isn't what happens in home recording much now.

40 years ago, you really didn't get to go to a recording studio without a record contract. Which meant that you were good enough in the A&R guy's eyes to get the job done. If you sucked, you would be replaced by a studio musician for the album.

40 years ago, you had an experienced producer and arranger that would help put the songs together before they got recorded. Now, you just record all the pieces, then copy, paste, slide them around until it's right.

It's not just the music that has changed, the procedures of recording have changed drastically. The caliber of musicians that are recording has changed. The caliber of engineers have changed. The equipment, spaces, and editing expectations have all changed so drastically that if you took most people that are recording themselves now and put them back into 1973, they would be lost.

Likewise, if took someone from 1973 and brought them here, they would be a little confused as well.

It's the same with my 1933 analogy: If you took an engineer from the 30's and took him to a 24 track studio in the 70's....

 

[RAMI]

are you telling me that as a drummer, you NEVER played with a guitarist or bassist that would drag or speed up regardless of YOUR tempo?

Keep in mind, that even though I agreed with most of undrgd's post, I AM with you on the click thing. I do use a click regularly and actually prefer it.

But, to answer your question (that I quoted), of course we've all played with people like that. Some reading this probably ARE those people...not me of course. But, the point is, I wouldn't be recording with someone like that. No matter how good their "chops" are or how fast they can play, if they have major tempo issues, that makes him/her a bad musician, period.

It's like asking "Haven't you ever played with a guitar player who was always out of tune?". Well, yeah, my first couple of years of playing, I'm sure I did. But I wouldn't be playing with someone like that now no matter how many chords they know or how fast they can shred.

And again, having said all that, I'll repeat that I think a good drummer should be able to play with a click

........AND without a click. You don't neccassarilly want to wear headphones with a click in them when it's time to play live and re-produce those tunes you played so tightly in the studio.

So, I think it's equally important to be able to do both.

 

[miroslav]

But, the point is, I wouldn't be recording with someone like that. No matter how good their "chops" are or how fast they can play, if they have major tempo issues, that makes him/her a bad musician, period.

Well yeah.
Which is why I use the click for recording...it irons out small timing wrinkles in otherwise good playing.

You don't neccassarilly want to wear headphones with a click in them when it's time to play live and re-produce those tunes you played so tightly in the studio.

So, I think it's equally important to be able to do both.

Agreed...playing live is another animal...and you only play a song once (well, unless you're a Southern Rock Band, in which case you play "Freebird" at least 3 times/night).

With recording...once you lay down a song...it's will be heard the same way over and over and over.
One reason pro recordings/artists sound so good is because they ARE super tight....and it's not just due to skillful playing, they also use timing devices in the studio if needed, and/or edit timing if needed...and of course, they use session players who are just super tight all the time.
A click helps the average players achieve that super tight snap in their timing.

Anyone remember the Jeanius Electronics Russian Dragon?
It was an LED timing device that compared two sources to visually show if one was rushing or dragging in reference to the other one.
There were too many pissed off players in pro studios arguing over timing, and so the Russian Dragon came along to settle those arguments.
I use to have one...but once the DAWs came into play there was no need for the Russian Dragon, though some people still use them and look for them on eBay.
When I sold mine...I had 3 other guys asking me about it afterwards once they found out I had one.