Click track with a band?

[Han]

Glad I asked this question.

So the answer, basically, is if you can do it then great, but if the drummer can't play to a click then you're going nowhere fast.

And (as in my experience) making a drummer who plays like crap try to play to a click will make them play more like crap, so if you gotta polish a turd at least polish the less smelly turd.

Han, or anyone else with a lot of experience recording drummers, do you try to take the whole band on the same take, or lay tracks individually? If you take the drummer first, and they're... um... not exactly perfect in the timing department, how has this affected guitar/other instrument overdubs after-the-fact... do you find that if the band has any kind of groove they can deal with the slightly-shifting drums in overdubs, or has this ever given anyone a major headache trying to get instruments to play over off-time drums? I know bands like to rely on each other when playing, so that kind of thing is more easily overcome if everyone's playing together, but seems like it could get messy if later you've got say a complex guitar riff to lay in over a drum break after the fact, especially if the drum break is a little sloppy.

I guess this is really an 'artist wants' vs. 'AE wants' question - if someone sucks bad enough to give you 'problems' in the overdub process do you just tell them to go the f home and f'n practice before coming to the studio, or retrack that drum break as many times as it takes, or do you just smile, grit your teeth, stare down that smelly turd and get out your can of polish?

thanx - very informative from all

When I track a band, the whole band plays in one room, even the vocalist is in the same room, just like in the rehearsal room or like on stage. No headphones, but wedge monitors and a drumfill.

If the vocalist has a weak voice, I put them in the booth where they have a pair of monitors with the band on it, no headphones. I do this with instruments like vibraphone as well, or sometimes the upright bass.

On stage or in the rehearsal room nobody plays to a click. When a band is playing the musicians kind of connect with each other, unless it's a crap band. In that case they will have nothing to find in a studio whatsoever.

In case the band or the producer insists to play to a click, I put the click on headphones and the whole band plays to the click. The click got tracked as well, so when there's an overdub because of a blooper, the click is on tape.

The times I tracked a band to a click it hardly got any better in a way of groove, maybe two or three times in the last twenty years it was an improvement.

I am a drummer who can play to a click very easely, no problem at all. It's like swimming, some can and some can't. They will drown within a couple of yards. But I don't like playing to a click at all, besides that, it ain't necessary.

The trick of playing to a click is just simple, don't try to play on top of that damn click, but see it as a conductor. Play close to it and if you feel you're behind, very gently accellerate untill you're close. Same when you're ahead, gently slow down, when you slow down to fast or even suddenly, you'll kill the groove.

It's the music that counts, nothing more, nothing less. We are talking ART here aren't we?

 

[fenix]

That's funny, so you're gonna have a 'perfect' drumtrack thanks to ProTools and the clicktrack?

Polishing turds is what we call that.

here in the states, we call it editing.

 

[jake-owa]

I am in totaly agreement with the soul argument for my own purposes. I mean c'mon, does the Philharmonic use a click for performances? Did the greatest hits of the 50s and 60s need a click? No, and neither do you.

That said, it's all personal taste period. Do what you want and let artists play the way they feel most comfortable. If edits are a big part of your recording process, sorry, but you'll probably need a click and tempo map along with autotune and every other lame trick in the book.

So what? I hate the sound of mechanical music but that's just me.

 

[bigdaddyd]

I'm new here, but this thread is great. Ive had the same question as I build a large jam/ recording room.

Neil Peart of rush always uses a click track, kinda like a strap on device that he feels the beat, rather than listening to the click. Hes the man...

Ive been a 15 year drummer, and have developed what I think is a natural feel for tempo, BUT, when recently trying to record a track with my son (who now plays drums and I guitar) I found how for off I really was. Just a simple fill can throw you off If its not done really close to a perfect tempo.

I truly believe that mastering tempo to a click should be a right of passage for any drummer whether he records to a click or not. Schooled guitarists have to burn scales, keys, chords, etc... into their learning, drummers should at least put in their time developing at least a respectable attempt at good timing.

I know, Ive played for many years, and up against a click, i need work...

D

 

[ecktronic]

Only down fall i can think of when not recording to a click (robot) is that delays will not be in time. Editing might be a little different, but not alot of editing should be needed anyway, unless you are just playing a few bars of a drum beat and then cut and pasting it!! gah.
MIDI is different. Use a click track for MIDI so you can quantise and edit. As MIDI music itsnt really live sounding anyway. Its more robotic and plastic.

 

[Ronan]

By the way, Sting dropped Stewart Copeland if I remember and is still doing pretty well making music with dead-on drum sync.

Yep! and all those records the police made are worthless, as well as the records Stewart Copeland made with peter gabriel, Stanley clarke, tom waits, and several soundtracks.

and the producers and engineers that recorded them should start looking for jobs at Walmart since they let such an untalented drummer play on those records.

 

[krimson]

Yep! and all those records the police made are worthless, as well as the records Stewart Copeland made with peter gabriel, Stanley clarke, tom waits, and several soundtracks.

and the producers and engineers that recorded them should start looking for jobs at Walmart since they let such an untalented drummer play on those records.

Hmmmm.....I'm not so sure. If I remember correctly i believe he did play to a click on a couple of songs during the Syncronicity tour, plus if I'm not mistaken I think he's playing on the Police DVD in the bonus section to a click.....

I like clicks.....I would much prefer them. If a drummer came in and you never worked with them in the studio before, would you prefer to have a click or not? That really is the question.

Someone said that a click makes horrible plastic music like Britny Spears, etc.. well........What about King Crimson? They play with click track and they are awesome. How about Opeth? Wicked band...er yep they play to click track too, hmmmmm lets see tons of bands play to click track live cause they are playing to sequenced parts, be it vocals, keyboards, etc.

As for the person who mentioned that the Philharmonic orchestra doesn't play to a click?.....hmmmm lets see.... I believe a conductor is a click isn't he? maybe not a audible one but definately a visual one with that pointy stick eh?
I saw ELP years ago on tour and the drummer played to a click, not only and audible click but a visual one as well(it was some rack or box that had a swinging LED on it moving side to side like the Korg tuner racks). I gues a visual click could work just as good as a audible one, is that cheating too?

 

[Ronan]

Hey Krimson,
Is your screen name a King Crimson reference? If so, I did about a dozen records with King Crimson and we did not use a click track on any of those records.

 

[krimson]

Hey Krimson,
Is your screen name a King Crimson reference? If so, I did about a dozen records with King Crimson and we did not use a click track on any of those records.

Which records would them be?

 

[MadAudio]

Well, I ran a session yesterday where the drummer

-had never done a recording session
-had never played to a click
-had just learned the song
-was using my kit

Considering all those disadvantages, he did pretty well, but it took him a few takes to get the hang of it. The bigger problem IMO was his kick technique - he would let the beater rest against the head after a beat. But that's another thread...

 

[Ronan]

Which records would them be?

I just got back from work in Europe and am a bit blurry at the moment. Almost all the projeKcts albums, the Vroom Vrooom DVD, Half of the Circus double CD, a couple of the collectors clubs records (I forget the names at the moment.) There is also some archive remix stuff in the can as well. Credited as "R. Chris Murphy" on those albums.

 

[MadAudio]

He ain't lyin' folks. Seen the credits myself.

 

[guhlenn]

one of the coolest replies ever. Thank you Ronan.

 

[TamaSabian]

I´m a drummer and instead of a click I use a basic drum pattern, kick, snare & hats. Right now I´m recording with my band without it, just playing all together using cans. The feeling we get that way it´s awesome.

 

[axeman69]

I HATE CLICK TRACKS.

If you want your drummer to play like robot, get a drum machine.They drink less. It takes the entire groove away.

 

[krimson]

I just got back from work in Europe and am a bit blurry at the moment. Almost all the projeKcts albums, the Vroom Vrooom DVD, Half of the Circus double CD, a couple of the collectors clubs records (I forget the names at the moment.) There is also some archive remix stuff in the can as well. Credited as "R. Chris Murphy" on those albums.

Sounds cool! I heard the click on I'm pretty sure it was a CC release. I can't remember myself as there are so many now. I think it was on the one with the Double Trio in Belew's studio in Nashville. You can clearly hear the click track very well.

 

[Ronan]

Sounds cool! I heard the click on I'm pretty sure it was a CC release. I can't remember myself as there are so many now. I think it was on the one with the Double Trio in Belew's studio in Nashville. You can clearly hear the click track very well.

I am not saying King Crimson never uses clicks, just not on any of the records I did. I have also done lots of other non King Crimson records with some of the king crimson guys in other projects. Some times we used clicks on those, other we did not. Its all about serving the music.

 

[krimson]

Its all about serving the music.

Can't argue with that!