Click track with a band?

B

Burden of Proof

New member
When recording myself, the click track is invaluable.
When recording others, I get mixed opinions.

What is standard practice with this, especially when recording a band with live drums? Do bands get all pissy about trying to stay on a click track tempo, and do you tell them it's a 'must' or do you let them do what they want or does it depend on how tight the drummer is?

Seems to at the very least make editing easier having the tempo reference in the DAW, but there's no GUI for most 4-tracks so this obviously hasn't been a 'must' in the past... but even then, do you force some kind of click on the band, even if it's a crappy old metronome just to make sure that your final recording is in a solid tempo?

I suppose it depends on who you're recording, how, and why... but does anyone have experience/thoughts on the subject?

thanx
 
I suppose I'll elaborate...

For myself, I usually program drums first... Thus acting as my "click track"
For others, which I don't often do, I let them decide what they wanted to do.
 
I always use a tempo guide

Sometimes click, sometimes a simple drum machine beat.

Too many potential downstream problems if the tempo isn't consistent.
 
If the drummer can play to a click, I make him play to a click. The rest of the band doesn't hear it. (unless they have to for some reason)
If the drummer can't play to a click, I don't make him. He is not going to learn how in the next 5 minutes.
 
Farview said:
If the drummer can't play to a click, I don't make him. He is not going to learn how in the next 5 minutes.
Click to expand...

LOL, drummers couldn't learn how to tie their shoes in 5 minutes. Just kidding.

Seriously though, you'd be surprised how many people (drummers or otherwise) can't do it. It's not a knock on their musicanship either, great musicians tend to "feel" the music and make subtle or not so sublte changes all to time to facilitate that feel. Making them track to a click would probably steal a little something away from their performance.
 
I almost never use a click, but when I do I want all musicians play to it.

A while back a drummer brought his own click and insisted to play to it although he couldn't very well.

It's horrible.
 
Click tracks should be standard practice and any producer/industry professional who says otherwise should consider a limited carreer. I'm evasive about this and I'll tell you why:


Click tracks are like rails for a train. They provide smooth guidance for any song. If you can imagine a train with no track, then you can imagine a band with no click track.


But more importantly, it's about post production. When you add in your time based effects, they rely heavily on tempo. The exact tempo will dictate your delay times, reverb times, etc. This will also help quantization 500 times fold. It's important for the musician as well as the audio engineer. It can be done without, but it won't be as easy.

My two cents.
 
Sorry, but that's nonsense IMHO. Have you ever heard a drummer who can't play to a click very well? It sounds awful and lacks any groove or feel, dreadful.

Depends on the kind of music also.
 
A click is essential, if a drummer can't play to a click he should not be a studio drummer. I can say this because I was that drummer until recently. It can feel really awkward at first but it has made me a MUCH better drummer. Getting back in the groove on time after fills, not rushing during crescendos, reentering after long rests, keeping the whole band "tight". Emotion is still interjected into the music using dynamics, and if tempo must change to give part of the song a certain feel these changes can always be programmed into the click.
 
Sorry, but that's nonsense IMHO. Have you ever heard a drummer who can't play to a click very well? It sounds awful and lacks any groove or feel, dreadful.


Alot of times if we can't get it to work, the producer or whoever is involved with the creative control will call in a studio drummer for that purpose.

It's amazing how many drummers can't play to a click track. :eek:


I always think of it as good practice
 
LRosario said:
Click tracks should be standard practice and any producer/industry professional who says otherwise should consider a limited carreer. I'm evasive about this and I'll tell you why:
Click to expand...
well I have had a pretty cool career for the last 15 years and worked with some of the greatest musicians in the world, but I better start thinking about a limited career.

I use clicks about half the time. some time 50/50 on the same record. In preproduction I will get the drummer to start working with a click and tell him to practice with the click. when we get into the studio we try it with and without the click and go with what ever feels better. There is absolutely no post production trick or effect that is even remotely as important as the the groove of the song feeling good. If that means the tune speeds up and down 20 bpm over the course of 5 minutes, so be it.

Forcing a drummer to play to a click that is not comfortable playing to a click will kill the music almost everytime. there are even times when I am recording top session drummers that have played on tons of platinum records where we find the music feels much better with out a click.

I suppose there are some records where being able to quantitize everything and making sure the time based effects are perfect is more important the the life, energy and soul of the music, but I sure as hell want no part of those albums.
 
i'm going to have to agree completely with Lrosario.

Amateurs can't play to clicks.



I play drums to a click. This makes it soooo much easier. I can do three takes and toggle between playlists in protools and take the best parts of each take to make a perfect drum take. Slap a little beat detective after that and you have an even more perfect drum track.

clicks are good.
 
That's funny, so you're gonna have a 'perfect' drumtrack thanks to ProTools and the clicktrack?

Polishing turds is what we call that.:D

BTW, some amateurs can play perfectly to a click and some very good, inventive and very pro drummers with an awesome sound and control can play whatever you like, but can't play to a click.

I've been recording more than a thousand drummers now.
 
Great!

Glad I asked this question.

So the answer, basically, is if you can do it then great, but if the drummer can't play to a click then you're going nowhere fast.

And (as in my experience) making a drummer who plays like crap try to play to a click will make them play more like crap, so if you gotta polish a turd at least polish the less smelly turd.

Han, or anyone else with a lot of experience recording drummers, do you try to take the whole band on the same take, or lay tracks individually? If you take the drummer first, and they're... um... not exactly perfect in the timing department, how has this affected guitar/other instrument overdubs after-the-fact... do you find that if the band has any kind of groove they can deal with the slightly-shifting drums in overdubs, or has this ever given anyone a major headache trying to get instruments to play over off-time drums? I know bands like to rely on each other when playing, so that kind of thing is more easily overcome if everyone's playing together, but seems like it could get messy if later you've got say a complex guitar riff to lay in over a drum break after the fact, especially if the drum break is a little sloppy.

I guess this is really an 'artist wants' vs. 'AE wants' question - if someone sucks bad enough to give you 'problems' in the overdub process do you just tell them to go the f home and f'n practice before coming to the studio, or retrack that drum break as many times as it takes, or do you just smile, grit your teeth, stare down that smelly turd and get out your can of polish?

thanx - very informative from all
 
I think a click track can kill the energy of a song (at least here in hard rock land) I would say be cautious about when and where you use it...

and for the record, 'perfect' drums suck...y'know who has perfect drums? britney spears has perfect drums...linkin park has perfect drums...techno has perfect drums...nickelback has perfect drums...snoop dogg has perfect drums...perfect drums are lame...

i hope i've made some kind of point, and now i guess you have to ask yourself what kind of an album you want to make...
 
Sad, sad,drummer rant, I apologize now...and later

I can't resist jumping in here...

If your guitar player uses a device to make sure he's pretty much in tune, shouldn't your drummer use a device to make sure he can carry a beat?
Does your singer use the music they hear to stay on pitch?
These cues and eqipment are vital to music in general.
It seems to me the only person I a band not required to follow a lead is the drummer.


Sorry for this rant on drummers.
It takes so long to make their kits sounds good, and then they can't maintain a steady beat.


By the way, Sting dropped Stewart Copeland if I remember and is still doing pretty well making music with dead-on drum sync.

If you want "live" performance, fine, drop the idea of crucial timing. The question is this, "how meticulous should your music be"?

Somneone else said it, the DAW has made musicians very aware of timing. Does that matter to everyone, probably not. But I would not like to listen to a band that played out of tune, or a singer who needs Autotune with a joystick. I CAN tell when a drummer drops a tempo and it matters to me.

I am truly sorry for the rant......I am not a perfect human, and computers cannot make music. But drummers who refuse to learn to play by click only make everyone elses job more difficult.
 
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