Clef Confusion - Can anyone read for guitar and bass?

[junplugged]

it's really insane to try to learn the bass clef after knowing some reading for treble. I have to constantly think, when i'd rather just read, but as soon as I stop thinking, i read a D when it's a B and F when it's A etc etc.

Of course thinking slows it down to only reading 1/4 notes at 90 bpm. And i hate to think of the consequences to my guitar reading after some bass practice.

can Anyone actually do both?

 

[mandocaster]

it's really insane to try to learn the bass clef after knowing some reading for treble. I have to constantly think, when i'd rather just read, but as soon as I stop thinking, i read a D when it's a B and F when it's A etc etc.

Of course thinking slows it down to only reading 1/4 notes at 90 bpm. And i hate to think of the consequences to my guitar reading after some bass practice.

can Anyone actually do both?

You get used to it. After all, piano players do it - and they aint to smert.

I play guitar and bass (and mandolin of course) do I go back and forth pretty comfortably.

 

[gordone]

No problems reading bass and treble clef. I'm glad I took piano lessons as a youngster!

 

[suntzu1982]

You get used to it. After all, piano players do it - and they aint to smert.

I play guitar and bass (and mandolin of course) do I go back and forth pretty comfortably.

What? I always thought piano players were the smartest of all.

 

[azraelswings]

I don't in fact play bass, but I do play a little cello and read that rather comfortably.

My advice for both is to stop thinking "That note is e...e is ...here." Learn scale shapes on the fretboard and try to read within the key. Up a second, down a third, etc. This is really much simpler than I can explain on a forum, sadly.

 

[sjjohnston]

can Anyone actually do both?

As already mentioned: anyone who can read piano music can read both at once.

If you want to read string quartets, you've got to read treble, bass and alto clefs.

Then, if you get into scores of any size, you have to start worrying about the fact that lots of instruments are written in different keys.

 

[mitosis]

If you do it enough, you get used to it. Piano definitely helps and it just becomes automatic.

 

[BigRay]

I read in all 4 clefs, tenor, alto, bass, and treble. Being a Bass singer, I am in the Bass Clef most of the time, but ive found it a tremendous help to know them all. Music theory really paid off.

hints:
Clef -- 5 Lines -- 5 Spaces -- 4 Lines Below (including 1st line) & 4 Lines Above (starting from 5th line) -- 4 Spaces below -- 4 Spaces Above

Treble Clef -- EGBDF -- FACE -- FACE -- EGBD -- GBDF

Bass Clef -- GBDFA -- ACEG -- ACEG -- GBDF -- BDFA

Alto Clef -- FACEG -- GBDF -- GBDF -- FACE -- ACEG

Tenor Clef -- DFACE -- EGBD -- EGBD -- DFAC -- FACE

 

[philbo]

Bass Clef - line notes (bottom to top) Good Boys Do Fine Always (GBDFA)

 

[junplugged]

if i stop to think about it i can figure out the notes and where they are, but i don't want to have to do that.

so when sight reading for guitar and i see the top space, treb clef, i don't think e and go, i just go for the first string open, what i find really interesting is that the top space on the bass clef, although it's g, it is also the first string open!

another coincidental same location is the middle line on each staff - on treb/guitar it's the second open string, b, on bass it's also the second open string but, d.

...just a couple of observations, but hopefully i'll remember what instrument i'm playing, but i still see bass/a and think treb/f, so maybe i'm mentally challenged in sight reading, but perhaps i'll get used to it, i just started out again w/ bass reading.

piano is totally different, it feels totally different and it's different hands for each clef, not that i don't confuse them too, but it seems clearer to me.

 

[junplugged]

some more weird similars - middle c bass clef is first string 5th fret, and one ledger line over treb is a, but also first string 5th fret.

also the f of the f clef/4th line up, is second string 3rd fret on bass and on treb clef it's d, but also on guitar second string 3rd fret.

i might just try to forget these coincidences.

 

[andycerrone]

I read in all 4 clefs, tenor, alto, bass, and treble. Being a Bass singer, I am in the Bass Clef most of the time, but ive found it a tremendous help to know them all. Music theory really paid off.

hints:
Clef -- 5 Lines -- 5 Spaces -- 4 Lines Below (including 1st line) & 4 Lines Above (starting from 5th line) -- 4 Spaces below -- 4 Spaces Above

Treble Clef -- EGBDF -- FACE -- FACE -- EGBD -- GBDF

Bass Clef -- GBDFA -- ACEG -- ACEG -- GBDF -- BDFA

Alto Clef -- FACEG -- GBDF -- GBDF -- FACE -- ACEG

Tenor Clef -- DFACE -- EGBD -- EGBD -- DFAC -- FACE

As a fellow singer (tenors own) and music theorist, you've got your facts a little mixed up. Those aren't actual clefs, those are the ranges of each singer/note. If you're writing in four parts, you'd try to keep a note in each range.

As for other clefs, there are others that are rarely used because of their position. But they are really useful to know for specific instruments. Hope this clears a little bit up!

 

[sjjohnston]

Those aren't actual clefs ...

Actually, I think they are. Anyway, at least the the treble, bass and alto are, and I think he's got them correct. I don't know much about conventions of writing music for voice, but viola is definitely written on an alto clef.

There's a connection, of course, between the ranges and the clefs. So far as I understand any of this, a particular clef is used because it keeps the range of the instrument/voice mostly on the staff (though most instruments have enough range that they kind of run off either end).

I usually just remember where middle C is:
Treble: One ledger line below the staff
Bass: One ledger line above the staff
Alto: Middle line of the staff

And, of course:
Treble, as played on guitar: Space above middle line of the staff
Bass, as played on the bass: One ledger line above the staff is the C below middle C.

 

[jfrog]

if i stop to think about it i can figure out the notes and where they are, but i don't want to have to do that.

so when sight reading for guitar and i see the top space, treb clef, i don't think e and go, i just go for the first string open, what i find really interesting is that the top space on the bass clef, although it's g, it is also the first string open!

another coincidental same location is the middle line on each staff - on treb/guitar it's the second open string, b, on bass it's also the second open string but, d.

...just a couple of observations, but hopefully i'll remember what instrument i'm playing, but i still see bass/a and think treb/f, so maybe i'm mentally challenged in sight reading, but perhaps i'll get used to it, i just started out again w/ bass reading.

piano is totally different, it feels totally different and it's different hands for each clef, not that i don't confuse them too, but it seems clearer to me.

I think the only reason piano is differerent is that piano players are forced to learn both clefs - so they do. Guitar players can, for the most part, get away with out learning either, if they want.

A trick to learn the bass clef, (or any other musical concept for that matter) is to make up some flashcards with a different note of the bass clef on each card. You'll become proficient in no time. When my daughter started playing piano at 6 years old, that's what her teacher made her do. Not just notes, but key signatures, musical terms and anything else related to playing.

P.S. I intend to do that with the bass clef notes someday when I get around to it.

 

[junplugged]

I'm already getting better at it and when i read for guitar, i wasn't confused at all, except once.

And those crazy coincidences between similar fingerings and staff locations are ok for a quick cheat in reading, but that's all. I want to forget about them since they tend to make me think that the surrounding notes are the same, but they arent.

The other thing about both instruments is that you want to get away from open position reading rather quickly since most playing is closed position anyway.

Movable forms are a different kind of thing, haven't had much success with them yet, there's some trick about them i need to figure out where i'm not saying Eb Bb Cbb Fb etc.

there's definately at least 2 of those other clefs that show middle C in the center of them. I learned them in college.

 

[IronFlippy]

As a fellow singer (tenors own) and music theorist, you've got your facts a little mixed up. Those aren't actual clefs, those are the ranges of each singer/note.

They are all clefs. If you're reading four part harmony, you'll be looking at soprano, alto, tenor, bass. The alto and tenor clefs are called C clefs because they both center in on middle C. The actual notation for the clef is moved up for tenor clef because it brings the notes closer to the staff so less ledger lines are needed. Hope I didn't confuse anyone.

Summay:
- Four clefs: Treble, Alto, Tenor, Bass.
- Alto and Tenor are the same (C clef), just on different lines



Junplugged, I understand the confusion you're going through. Having played alto sax and guitar my whole life, I've never read anything except the treble clef. After 2 semesters of Music Theory at school, I finally have a good handle on bass clef, and I can read C clef if necessary. It just takes time and practice, and it seems like you're working on it. Betcha can't wait until the day you can read bass clef as well as treble!

 

[junplugged]

...snip...
Junplugged, I understand the confusion you're going through. Having played alto sax and guitar my whole life, I've never read anything except the treble clef. After 2 semesters of Music Theory at school, I finally have a good handle on bass clef, and I can read C clef if necessary. It just takes time and practice, and it seems like you're working on it. Betcha can't wait until the day you can read bass clef as well as treble!

well having one of these babies really makes me want to be good at it

 

[Nicole_Rose]

Music Theory Online

this explains it all pretty well i think.

 

[andydeedpoll]

i've been reading both clefs since i was about 7 - i reckon i can read music Much more proficiently than i can read English it just takes practise. i took up the guitar about 5 years ago, and bass in the last year or two. i've never bothered to learn to read properly for guitar, but i play bass in church, and just get given a load of music ten minutes before the service - i used to just read the chords, but as i've got used to it, i've started to read the notes - i reckon it's taken me about a year to learn to sight read a reasonably complicated part - anything in more than 4 sharps and above maybe the 7th frets still stops me in my tracks, and if it's that hard i'll just read the chords still

but it IS worth learning, i think. for me, music is more interesting if you understand the theory behind it, and you can only truly understand the theory if you can read it.

Andy

 

[Sirnothingness]

I have a clef chin, does that count?


Ok, I don't really have a clef chin, but I can read tab.