Classical Solo Violoncello

[jclark5093]

[[I posted this in the mic thread as well, but it's a multi question thing - sorry if I'm not following regulations - feel free to mod me if needed ]]

preface: sorry for the novella of a multi-question thread, and thanks for reading all the way through! (and hopefully responding! even if all you say is shut up and go away ^-^)
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So I'm here because an SM57 gives me hell with placement, and I don't get consistent tone because I sway a bit when I play (I do mostly Bach suites. 5th is my fav to record, but to do multiple takes is hell on the hands!)

some people on a different forum have been telling me to get more 57s... (I'm trying to put together a project studio) but I will never mic amps. I do acoustic only (piano, violin, cello, vocals, classical guitar, string quartets, maybe some woodwinds...)

Anyway, my wife is severely limiting my budget (something along the lines of - do it as cheap as possible, and if it looks like you're serious, then you can "invest"...)

So what I'm looking at as of now is an MXL 550/551 pack, or AT2020/2021 pack, potentially a stereo pair of CAD or Behringer sdcs and of course cables and stands (found the cables 6 pack for 50 on amazon and 6 pack of OnStage tripod booms for 100).

the 550/551 was 85
the 2020/2021 was 115
stereo sdcs can be had for 50 a pair

and I need an interface that will work with my win7 (i know blech, but I can't afford a mac right now. My PC is very high end and self built, though, so I can handle whatever it throws at it)

I don't know if I should go with a Delta 44 and a 4 bus cheapo mixer (i.e. behringer xenyx 1204) which would be 115 for the delta and 130 for the xenyx which puts me at ~250 for the "interface" or would it be worth the jump if I can get a price match on an m-audio fast track ultra for 300? (or a tascam 1641 for 300?)

Also, as much as I would love to build my own ribbon, I don't have the time or patience (2 little kids plus wanting to make music, not mics....). are the cheapo ribbons worth the money? Like the naddy's or the MXL R144? or should I just spend 100 for the MF pack of the MXL V63m with ART tube mp studio with a boom and cable, and use a patch cable to DI to my onboard sound for now? That would be 100 total instead of 500, but would probably sound like a home recording....

I guess I want something that I can do myself and not have people assume off the bat that "oh, this is a home demo". I don't need customers, I want quality that is merited by my own musicianship. That's all.

So bang for buck - throw ideas at me!!!

 

[mshilarious]

some people on a different forum have been telling me to get more 57s... (I'm trying to put together a project studio) but I will never mic amps. I do acoustic only (piano, violin, cello, vocals, classical guitar, string quartets, maybe some woodwinds...)

57 for cello? Never go to that forum again!

the 550/551 was 85
the 2020/2021 was 115
stereo sdcs can be had for 50 a pair

AT makes nice stuff, but if you're going to do stereo it's nice to have two of the same mic. Can you score 2x 2021s? I guess not. That's annoying.

and I need an interface that will work with my win7 (i know blech, but I can't afford a mac right now. My PC is very high end and self built, though, so I can handle whatever it throws at it)

Stereo recording is not very taxing for any PC. I started out with a P3 running Win98 . . . pick a USB interface you like and buy it.

I don't know if I should go with a Delta 44 and a 4 bus cheapo mixer (i.e. behringer xenyx 1204) which would be 115 for the delta and 130 for the xenyx which puts me at ~250 for the "interface" or would it be worth the jump if I can get a price match on an m-audio fast track ultra for 300? (or a tascam 1641 for 300?)

Hmmm. Well, are going to want to record more than stereo at some point in the near future? If not, then I'd stick with the USB guys. USB can't do more than stereo though, so for all-in-one multichannel interfaces usually people go firewire.

Also, as much as I would love to build my own ribbon, I don't have the time or patience (2 little kids plus wanting to make music, not mics....). are the cheapo ribbons worth the money? Like the naddy's or the MXL R144?

Not for classical, I'd say no. People that like cheapo ribbons on stuff like violin don't really dig the natural sound of violin, they want to kill the overtones that bother them.

Expensive ribbons have good high frequency response, but I'd skip the cheapos, they are just too dark. Assembly quality is also very highly variable.

I guess I want something that I can do myself and not have people assume off the bat that "oh, this is a home demo". I don't need customers, I want quality that is merited by my own musicianship. That's all.

The best thing you can do to make sure your home recordings don't sound like home recordings is to record in the largest space you can find. Cello in a bedroom is gonna sound demo, gear doesn't matter. Unless it's a really big bedroom . . .

 

[jclark5093]

wow, thanks for all the tips! and I was talking USB 2.0, not 1.1... I'm assuming the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra and Ultra 8R can *actually* do 8 at a time each (the rack has 8 pres, the regular has 4 and 4trs) and the Tascam 1641 is also usb 2.0 (faster than firewire, but not sure about burst vs consistency...)

ANYWAY, I may have just found a used Firebox (6x10 or whatever) at my local guitar center for $79.00.... might have to jump on that tomorrow.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions about the stupid 57s!

since I can't afford a Royer R122V (~$1750) I guess I'll go w/o a ribbon... What *would* you suggest then?

and I would like to ultimately record more than 2 tracks at a time (I have a few rooms and can get long cords ;-) like cello and midi in one room, vocals in one, and acoustic guitar in another, so that's, what, 2 on the cello (or maybe I can get by with 1?), 1 for vocals, and 1 or 2 on the guitar... that's all for the future though. I want to get started acap (as cheap as possible...) for doing just me and overdub, overdub, overdub.

 

[jclark5093]

AT makes nice stuff, but if you're going to do stereo it's nice to have two of the same mic. Can you score 2x 2021s? I guess not. That's annoying.

I was thinking, instead of stereo, I would use 2 for proximity (1 close and 1 far...) the 2020 came with a free 2021 (same as 550 comes with 551)

I mean I could just get the CAD or Behringer pencil pair for $50 that comes with the ORTF (or whatever it is) mount, and mic the room - I have a small room, a medium room, and a very small room (vocal booth size). Or perhaps an AKG perception and just mono everything...

I just want to be off to a good start from which I can build... and Tweakheadz.com rigs are the ones that got me to the forums recommending more 57s >< He seems to know alot and have some great info, but I need some direction - I need a push, so if it goes sour I can blame someone else ;-)

 

[rayc]

Hi, & welcome.
I record my 'cello mono & stereo depending on the circumstances.
If you're looking at SDCs have a squiz at those on offer from Naiant - esp a matched pair. Better than the Behris & cheaper I think - you can get pres from there too.
I've used Shure mics on 'cello & don't like 'em - but then I don't like Shure mics anyway.
I've also had some success with a LCD from Behri - using Behri & Presonus preamps - neither are the quietest pres though.
Interesting I've had success with a pair of old Sony 19b ECMs - they have a bit of self noise I have to filter out but are quite musical.
there, that didn't answer any questions did it.
If you go to my soundclick page & find the track Gimli's Lament & listen for the 'cello solo (not my solo I'm afraid - my tutor's) that was done with a Grange dynamic i bought in the early 90's. There are 'cellos on a few more of my tracks, (Rev Blues in the solo, Lost Letters, Slent Waltz, Whisper & Sandpaper Castles 1811), but they represent me learning to record over a few years.
What would I recommend? I'd say start with the Naiant http://www.naiant.com/studiostore.html matched pair for a stereo image. Add anything else you have in mind for the room mic, (though you'll have to be careful with that one as the room might already provide enough of it's own sound without adding the extra mic), because they're cheap & very good - I'd consider one of their pres too OR ask them to recommend one for the specific task (the fellow who hand makes the mics will give you honest advice & does know acoustic instruments very well).
As to interface they're a lot available & cheap. I use an old 8 in 8 out INCA card & break out box but you can get firewire & USB2 goodies these days that will surpass it. I'd caution against restricting yourself to 2 INs as you just might get a trio or small ensemble who are impressed with your recordings & you'll have to knock them back or buy, install & learn a new device just to meet needs.
PLEASE search the net & find a guide for optimizing your W7 for audio recording. there's a bundle of directions for XP ( I work under XP & 98 on 2 machines - stable, wonkinesses are well nown etc.) available but I don't know about 7. Such tweaks will deal with latency, page filines swapping etc asw ell as bacground progs that can clog & bog down your recording.
Good luck

 

[jclark5093]

Thanks for the tip about Naiant! I'll give him a call and see what he says - the tiny pencil (22 w/o screen each) has optional mount for violin!!! Maybe he has one for cello? Definitely worth an ask!

And yeah, I'm going to get an outboard interface, no PCI. Probably something portable, so in case I am requested to do live recordings, etc.

And then it's only time until I can get my hands on a stereo pair of C414s or a R122V ;-)

 

[mshilarious]

And then it's only time until I can get my hands on a stereo pair of C414s or a R122V ;-)

You can get the five-finger discount on the mics, but it's pretty hard to steal a bigger room. I guess you can haunt construction sites after dark, that takes a while though. Instead, try Googling "adverse possession"

 

[moresound]

see what I posted to this question under mics about cello micing it might help or worth a try to see the results.

 

[jclark5093]

You can get the five-finger discount on the mics, but it's pretty hard to steal a bigger room. I guess you can haunt construction sites after dark, that takes a while though. Instead, try Googling "adverse possession"

In Pennsylvania, I know all about real estate laws - getting my license pretty soon - so I know all about adverse possesion >< (takes 7 years here though)

and as for the discount mics, places always keep the good ones behind glass

But hey, if some 414s fall off the back of a truck, I'll be the first on the scene

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yo JClark! You really haven't listed anything that can't be honestly recorded in 2 tracks with 2 small diaphragm condensers. The only reason for a large diaphragm mic is if you intend to add vocals. There is also a form of stereo recording that requires one cardioid and one figure-8 mic, which is called mid-side (MS) recording. It sounds like you have found a used interface which should work fine. You don't need a Mac. The room is key, like MSHilarious says. You can do this with pretty much any 2 more or less identical condenser mics that are well made. For dirt cheap, these aren't bad:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=31442&Category=Microphones

Read everything you can find on stereo recording and do searches on coincedent stereo mic'ing, ORTF, NOS, spaced stereo recording, Decca Tree, Jecklin disc, and mid-side stereo mic'ing.

Best of luck-Richie

 

[jclark5093]

thanks for the tip, but for the time being, I think I found my solution - that interface couldn't be found in the store anyway (and even if it was, i'm finding that the windows 7 64bit drivers are slow and awful for it)

My onboard HD audio has a line in that takes audio at 16 bit and 96kHz (which is about the same as alot of interfaces I'm finding out there in my budget range anyway) and I realize that while I can do pretty much anything with 2 sdc in stereo, I can also do pretty much anything with a single LDC (wish it was omni, but I got a cardoid)

So my wife found me the cheapest setup for now. Total = $104.66

This package, plus a patch cable I already had, plus a quarter to mini adapter (which I payed too much for at radio shack).

Mic to tube, to line out to line in on the back of my motherboard. There isn't even that much hiss.

I'm honestly disappointed with my setup (as I'm sure many would be) but at least it lets me record for now... (and I absolutely abhor cubase LE, and I can't use my Logic on my PC, so I'm trapped trying to record pure audio in Live which is much more conducive to sequencing, but whatever. Maybe I'll use audacity.)

Either way, maybe in a couple months she'll let me get a decent mic and either an interface or a mixer - I'm thinking mixer and use the master outs to the line in on the computer (still 16bit 96kHz) so I could use an LDC near the sound board, and an SDC as a room mic outside the nearfield, and I could also use my fishman c100 (which sounds like a kazoo by itself, but the frequency response will fill in anything missing from the mics)


Thanks for all your help so far, and I hope you're not too embarrassed by my setup! ><

Other than the fan noise from my computer, is there anything I should watch out for? So far I've done acoustic guitar and vocals (on separate tracks) and I have the latency less than 5ms with no problems (my computer is bad ass)

Would I be better off with my SM57 vs this MXL V63M? I'd find out, but I have no mic clip for the 57, and the stores around me sell them for like 15 dollars, which makes me want to hurt someone... so what do *you* guys think? (since this is what I'm working with for now?)

Thanks!

 

[mshilarious]

My onboard HD audio has a line in that takes audio at 16 bit and 96kHz (which is about the same as alot of interfaces I'm finding out there in my budget range anyway)

Sample rate is rather unimportant. Bit depth isn't terribly important, except that 24 bit lets you not worry about level so much (more dynamic range). But once you get a setup that works, it's not critical.

I'm honestly disappointed with my setup (as I'm sure many would be) but at least it lets me record for now... (and I absolutely abhor cubase LE, and I can't use my Logic on my PC, so I'm trapped trying to record pure audio in Live which is much more conducive to sequencing, but whatever. Maybe I'll use audacity.)

Audacity over Cubase LE? Interesting. Maybe try Reaper.

Either way, maybe in a couple months she'll let me get a decent mic and either an interface or a mixer - I'm thinking mixer and use the master outs to the line in on the computer (still 16bit 96kHz) so I could use an LDC near the sound board, and an SDC as a room mic outside the nearfield, and I could also use my fishman c100 (which sounds like a kazoo by itself, but the frequency response will fill in anything missing from the mics)

You don't want to record a mix you do outside your computer. Why? Because you'll end up disliking the mix and having to retrack. You want to get each source on its own track so you can futz with it later. So that means pick your best two tracks and record them, or get an interface with more than two inputs. I would go with the former approach.

Other than the fan noise from my computer, is there anything I should watch out for? So far I've done acoustic guitar and vocals (on separate tracks) and I have the latency less than 5ms with no problems (my computer is bad ass)

Latency is not primarily a function of your badass computer (except to the extent that you want to do a massive amount of processing of incoming signal), it's a function of your soundcard. But it doesn't really matter at all tracking, unless you need to hear effects on your tracks as you record them. See, modern programs compensate for latency so as you dub something on top of existing tracks it all magically lines up.

Latency becomes an issue when you want to add a plug-in effect to a track as you record it. That requires the sound to leave your soundcard, get processed, and come back. That takes time. So don't do that unless strictly necessary (as it would be with softsynths, for example).

Would I be better off with my SM57 vs this MXL V63M? what do *you* guys think? (since this is what I'm working with for now?)

I'm pretty sure no. It might be interesting to mix the two, but right now you only have a mono preamp.

 

[jclark5093]

the idea of a mixer was so that I could multimic (stereo ldc + 57 on bridge for string noise, and maybe an omni/room mic) also I have an electric guitar, and while the mic would pickup the strumming, I could use it as a scratch track and then go over the vocals again

With acoustic guitar I like to do everything live anyway, so I guess a single cardoid will work fine for that.


and THANK YOU FOR THE TIP ON REAPER OMG! it reminds me of logic I only mentioned Audacity because it's free (and I'm a fan of FOSS) and I kind of know how to use it already.

but Reaper? I'm already overdubbing, muting, click-tracking, splitting, mixing down, and putting fx on tracks. It's like I'm home - I might throw down the 60 bucks if it treats me well over the next 30 days! I think I like it better than pro-tools so far! (if my mother returns my mac to me, though, I will probably get logic...)

But wow, I feel like I'm rambling (had to stop in the middle of a session because I got so excited about the program I felt the urge to respond here and let you guys know how much I love it)

Anyone who hasn't tried it, it's like a 4 or 5 MB download, so why not? and they didn't put any crazy libraries or dlls or anything weird on my computer, so its' pretty much like a big full featured version of Audacity (or maybe you could say it's like Ardour for windows )

 

[mshilarious]

Actually I've never used Reaper, I use Cubase but mostly Wavelab. Can't beat free though.

 

[jclark5093]

oh, reaper isn't free, but Audacity is (and open source) but reaper is worth a look - even if you're comfortable with what you have I'd say it's worth a look at least.

I also realized that since I just getting started, this 'crappy' mic with this 'crappy' pre direct into my onboard soundcard, while workable, gives me SCADS of room for improvement - meaning when I can afford to upgrade (and I will, and I will...) then I'll notice and appreciate the difference in quality as opposed to starting out with $1000 worth of equipment (a good mice with a good pre or small 4/6/8 track mixer with good pre's and a pci sound card)

When I do upgrade I'll love the upgrade. Probably upgrade the mic first - I think I'd like to use either a ribbon or an omni with better frequency response, (haven't recorded cello with this setup yet) but guitar and vocals don't sound like "home demo" quality! so I'm content for now!

1 more thing - TRY REAPER! (free for 30 days)