Choir Mic'ing/mixing question

[chazba]

Our men's choir is in the process of recording some music for a CD and the guy they hired to do the tracking mic'd the choir like this :

2 highmounted ( 15 ft up) cardioid condenser's, spaced about 15 ft apart , about 5 feet above and in front of the choir,

2 medium high ( 6-7 ft up) spaced 15 ft apart , all mic's aimed straight in to the choir. One of our soloists has done a lot of recording, way more than me, and said that the mic's should be maybe 10 feet further back, 15-20 ft apart and crossed so that the right mic is aimed at the left side of the choir, and the same on the other side. He also said that this will give a very even sound because the "average distance to the singers will be more even and will smooth out the sounds of the sections" This guy has been in some bigtime choral groups in the past so maybe he knows whereof he speaks
Does anybody have choir recording experience to address this issue?? It's not too late to change setup and re-do the few songs recorded that way.

??????????


Thanx

chazba

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Forum calling BigRay, Come in BigRay...over........



G.

 

[mshilarious]

Sounds like the way they were set up is more of a live sound approach. It could work OK for recording, but it could also create phase problems. I don't think that the soloist's approach is necessarily better; getting all the singer to mic distances the same with four mics going into a stereo mix could also be a recipe for phase problems. Generally I would avoid A-B mic placement,
especially multiple A-B, in favor of ORTF cardioids or baffled omnis . . .

HOWEVER, there is really no way to tell what you already have without listening to the tracks. Maybe it sounds great

Another problem you run into with choirs is that sometimes every section (or every loudmouth) demands a spot mic so "they will be heard". That's because they have no idea how mics work and what sounds good on record. This is also why you see choirs of 20 people with a dozen mics for live sound. So it wouldn't be above a savvy engineer who wanted a choir to shut up to set up dummy mics that aren't going to make the final mix . . .

 

[chazba]

Yeah we have a guy like that....Actually he has a great voice, but it's hard to get him to blend with his section (1st tenor). His solo's are very well sung but man..... just try to get him to throttle back abit.....Thanks mshilarious for the comment. Never thought of phase problems but it makes sense to me.

chazba

 

[BigRay]

Setups vary according to how good the room is, but in a good room, nothing will beat Blumlein. IMHO, 15 feet is WAY too far apart for a pair of mics, unless there is a third mic in the middle to fill up the "gap".....what I would do(and always do, in my own work(coincidentally, recording choirs and symphonies, and various other classical incarnations ) Is to have one
1.) 1"mains" pair, either blumlein, 3 omnis across the front, ORTF, jecklin disc
2.)1 "flanking" pair, on either side of the "mains" pair to round out the sound.
3.)1.) "soloist" mic(ribbon, u87, whatever works) for the soloist.
4.)1 "ambient" pair, placed in the back of the room, , mixed in about 10-15db down to give the feeling of being there.

I dont like too many spot mics in a choir recording, personally..the main pair, the flanking pair, the soloist mic, and the ambient pair is ideal, IMHO.

Have fun! Acoustic recording is the best!

(edit, I just did a fantastic recording with the 3 omnis across the front method, and on either side of the omni array, I had one cardiod to serve as a flanking array.)..but my vote is BLUMLEIN!

Our men's choir is in the process of recording some music for a CD and the guy they hired to do the tracking mic'd the choir like this :

2 highmounted ( 15 ft up) cardioid condenser's, spaced about 15 ft apart , about 5 feet above and in front of the choir,

2 medium high ( 6-7 ft up) spaced 15 ft apart , all mic's aimed straight in to the choir. One of our soloists has done a lot of recording, way more than me, and said that the mic's should be maybe 10 feet further back, 15-20 ft apart and crossed so that the right mic is aimed at the left side of the choir, and the same on the other side. He also said that this will give a very even sound because the "average distance to the singers will be more even and will smooth out the sounds of the sections" This guy has been in some bigtime choral groups in the past so maybe he knows whereof he speaks
Does anybody have choir recording experience to address this issue?? It's not too late to change setup and re-do the few songs recorded that way.

??????????


Thanx

chazba

 

[tubesrawsom]

Whip out the deca tree.

 

[mshilarious]

Never thought of phase problems but it makes sense to me.

What you worry about with phase problems is when the mics aren't far enough apart, but will be panned together. I could be misunderstanding the setup you described, but it really sounded like each "left" mic (and "right" mic) of the two pairs are about the same distance from each other as they are from the choir. That could violate the "3:1" rule, when you have multiple mics on multiple sources, each mic (or coincident pair) should be 3 times farther from another mic as it is to its source, otherwise a source could be about the same strength in two mics, but out of phase in one of them.

In a stereo pair, the two signals are panned left and right, thus they are not mixed together and the phase problem does not occur. But if you have two "left" mics that are intended to occupy the same place in a stereo field (as opposed to a wide left, center left, center right, wide right setup), one of them better be further away (as in a room mic), which will be both delayed and back in the mix, also avoiding phase cancellation.

 

[chazba]

Thanx and a Ramble.......

Thanks msh for clarifying for me. That's kinda what I thought you meant, but you did a good job of nailing it down.Also thanks to BigRay. Sounds like you are past the "HomeRecording" stage. I'm only recently able to have time to get serious about my home rec projects. I'm more a composer than audio engineer, though I worked for 25+ years as a Clinical Engineer in the daytime and 45+ as a "picker" at night. Retired now and , though I don't play out any more, I have time for lots of practice and my chops are better than they were in '68. Tell me what that has to do with recording choirs and you will win a significant award. Just send $19.95 to cover shipping and handling.
lol


chazba

 

[NYMorningstar]

Sounds like you are past the "HomeRecording" stage. lol
chazba

I didn't think there was an end to this stage. I always figure that HomeRecording is to music as lab is to chemistry

 

[chazba]

Right you are NYMorningstar! I've had a homerecording setup since '66,when I bought a 2tr Panasonic which allowed overdubs. There's nothing better to stimulate improvement in my playing or singing than to hear proof of how bad I suck. What I meant was that it seems like BigRay has moved on to the ranks of the pro's.


chazba