Chipped My Nut!

[slowmotion]

However the nut plays a very limited role in transferring string energy to the guitar and effects tone less than people may imagine. The greatest proportion of the string energy is lost to the bridge and directly to the air. Some is also lost to internal friction or damping. Also energy is only lost via the nut on open strings. Once the string is stopped at a fret it is pretty much out of the equation.

I'm not 100% sure I agree with the last part (well, I 99% agree). The strings are always resting on the nut, fretting a note doesn't mean that the nut isn't forming part of the whole instrument. I do agree that you only really hear the quality of the nut on open strings, but it's always there, doing it's job, contributing to the overall timbre/resonance, if only to a small degree. I've always noticed a change to the whole instrument once a plastic nut is replaced with something better, not just on the open strings (but I'll concede maybe I'm just hearing what I want to and the whole business is very much splitting hairs). Thoughts?

 

[Light]

Just to add my opinion to Muttley's, I have never noticed a difference to anything but open strings from a bone nut, and would never suggest you change nut materials for sonic reasons - it is worth doing because it will give you more durability and tuning stability, not because of a change in tone.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[slowmotion]

Fair enough. But I do find a plastic nut dulls the attack, especially if you're playing combinations of open and fretted strings;I hear a large difference there for sure. I prefer the fretted sound in every way. When you play a scale run encorporating open strings, the open ones always sound muted to me. Hey, I'd prefer zero frets if they didn't suck for bends; so it's floyd roses for me.

I always change a plastic nut to *something* else as a priority with a new guitar (my own at least). Factory plastic mades baby satan cry.

Isn't tuning stability kinda a sonic reason?

 

[ggunn]

Another reason for using a bone nut is that the coefficient of sliding friction between metal and bone is much lower than that between metal and plastic (or metal and metal, for that matter). Tension is less likely to be retained by a bone nut, which helps a guitar stay in tune and is why you do not want a plastic (or brass) nut on a guitar with a floating bridge tremelo.

 

[Victory Pete]

I replaced the factory Corion nut on my Martin HD-28 with unbleached cowbone and was instantly pleased by a noticable difference. I believe it is also audible with fretted notes. I also decided not to use glue on it, maybe it distrupts the bone to wood contact. I had noticed on my Cordoba Classical guitar that they dont glue them either. My HD-28 has never sounded better. Martin now uses bone for both nuts and saddles on there standard series guitars. I also changed the factory Micarta saddle to bone. All my Gibson electrics have factory Corion nuts, I have no intention of changing them. I feel they sound just fine, also I think a nut on an electric is not as critical for tone as on an acoustic. Although a cheap plastic nut probably would affect tone and sustain.
VP

 

[ggunn]

I replaced the factory Corion nut on my Martin HD-28 with unbleached cowbone and was instantly pleased by a noticable difference. I believe it is also audible with fretted notes.

If you hear a difference then it's real to you. The subjectivity of hearing comes into play and there's no way to empirically prove a difference is there. Or not there, for that matter.

 

[Victory Pete]

If you hear a difference then it's real to you. The subjectivity of hearing comes into play and there's no way to empirically prove a difference is there. Or not there, for that matter.

I am convinced I heard a big improvement. One gets use to the sound of his own guitar and can tell when there is a change. I still have the Corion nut and because I didnt use glue I can switch them back and forth and compare, I can even record the results.
VP

 

[ggunn]

I am convinced I heard a big improvement. One gets use to the sound of his own guitar and can tell when there is a change. I still have the Corion nut and because I didnt use glue I can switch them back and forth and compare, I can even record the results.
VP

The operative word here is "convinced"; there is plenty of data around to show the connection between expected and perceived artifacts in sound. Note that I am not telling you that I know for a fact that it didn't make any difference, only that your evidence is anecdotal. Whatever blows your skirt up.

 

[Lt. Bob]

the nut is gonna only affect the sound on open strings.
It's just simple physics.
Whenever you fret a note ..... there IS no vibration at the nut to be transferred to the guitar. All the vibration is going on at the 'speaking length' of the string ..... , between the fret and the bridge. The string is NOT vibrating at the nut when you have the string fretted somewhere. You could wrap foam around the part of the string behind your fretting finger and you wouldn't hear any difference.
A bone nut is better because it is more durable and it does make open strings sound better.
Those are good enough reasons right there.

 

[muttley600]

the nut is gonna only affect the sound on open strings.
It's just simple physics.
Whenever you fret a note ..... there IS no vibration at the nut to be transferred to the guitar. All the vibration is going on at the 'speaking length' of the string ..... , between the fret and the bridge. The string is NOT vibrating at the nut when you have the string fretted somewhere. You could wrap foam around the part of the string behind your fretting finger and you wouldn't hear any difference.
A bone nut is better because it is more durable and it does make open strings sound better.
Those are good enough reasons right there.

Simple physics and common sense are not obstacles to stand in the way to some of our esteemed members.

 

[Victory Pete]

the nut is gonna only affect the sound on open strings.
It's just simple physics.
Whenever you fret a note ..... there IS no vibration at the nut to be transferred to the guitar. All the vibration is going on at the 'speaking length' of the string ..... , between the fret and the bridge. The string is NOT vibrating at the nut when you have the string fretted somewhere. You could wrap foam around the part of the string behind your fretting finger and you wouldn't hear any difference.
A bone nut is better because it is more durable and it does make open strings sound better.
Those are good enough reasons right there.

Thanks for your response, I cant help but think that even though the string doesnt vibrate up to the nut when using the frets, the string is still under tension and wraps around the bone nut. Maybe some physics would allow a small difference in sound.
VP

 

[Light]

Your ability to perceive fine distinctions between two sounds lasts less than three minutes. I have no idea how anyone could actually make and replace a nut quickly enough to hear any difference.

And of course, when you DO change the nut, 99% of the time you replace the strings, which is a much bigger difference than changing the nut.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[slowmotion]

the nut is gonna only affect the sound on open strings.
It's just simple physics.
Whenever you fret a note ..... there IS no vibration at the nut to be transferred to the guitar. All the vibration is going on at the 'speaking length' of the string ..... , between the fret and the bridge. The string is NOT vibrating at the nut when you have the string fretted somewhere. You could wrap foam around the part of the string behind your fretting finger and you wouldn't hear any difference.

Just for the point of arguing, you're talking about direct string vibration. But the entire instrument vibrates (well, assuming we're talking about a good instrument hehe) sympathetically with each note played, right? As per your example, you could indeed wrap some foam around the part of the string behind a fretted note and notice no tonal variation (totally agree with you there). But could you replace the entire nut with foam and still hear no difference? In the overall timbre of the instrument?

That aside (and I realise I'm using highly exagerrated examples and being an e-shit) I really question hearing a sonic difference between corian and bone though. Corian's pretty close to bone in my experience? It's good enough for Martin... VP if you could record this I'd be most interested (note sure how you will take out all the other variables though). Saddles, maybe, nut, dunno.

 

[Victory Pete]

Just for the point of arguing, you're talking about direct string vibration. But the entire instrument vibrates (well, assuming we're talking about a good instrument hehe) sympathetically with each note played, right? As per your example, you could indeed wrap some foam around the part of the string behind a fretted note and notice no tonal variation (totally agree with you there). But could you replace the entire nut with foam and still hear no difference? In the overall timbre of the instrument?

That aside (and I realise I'm using highly exagerrated examples and being an e-shit) I really question hearing a sonic difference between corian and bone though. Corian's pretty close to bone in my experience? It's good enough for Martin... VP if you could record this I'd be most interested (note sure how you will take out all the other variables though). Saddles, maybe, nut, dunno.

Martin just switched from corion to bone a couple of years ago. I would go to GC and try an HD-28 and was upset that it sounded better than mine. Little did I know they had just switched to bone. I almost traded my own HD-28 in for the new one. Anyways I ended changing my nut from corion to bone and now my guitar sounds as good as the new ones. It is as simple as that.
I can easily compare the original corion nut and the bone nut because I didnt glue it. It would take about 10 minutes to swap and tune up.
VP

 

[ggunn]

Martin just switched from corion to bone a couple of years ago. I would go to GC and try an HD-28 and was upset that it sounded better than mine. Little did I know they had just switched to bone. I almost traded my own HD-28 in for the new one. Anyways I ended changing my nut from corion to bone and now my guitar sounds as good as the new ones. It is as simple as that.
I can easily compare the original corion nut and the bone nut because I didnt glue it. It would take about 10 minutes to swap and tune up.
VP

I remain skeptical, but as I said, if you hear a difference then it's real for you. If changing the nut material dramatically improves the sound of your guitar to your ears, then by all means do it. Whether anyone else hears the difference is irrelevant.

 

[Lt. Bob]

But could you replace the entire nut with foam and still hear no difference? In the overall timbre of the instrument?

My opinion is that you could ........ for that matter ...... you could just not have a nut at all and I doubt you'd hear a difference in fretted notes.

Now, I haven't tried it ...... I'm stating my opinion so hold back on the vitreol.
But I know a fair amount about acoustics and I have built guitars before so I know something about them also.
Yes, the strings are putting tension on the neck which would have an impact on the vibrations in the body and sustain etc.
BUT, the tension is totally unaffected by nut material or even whether there is a nut. The tension is there just the same ..... nut or no.
So I feel sure it only makes a difference on open strings.
As someone else said though, if YOU think it makes a difference, that's enough.

But before I'd be convinced by anyone saying they can hear a difference, I'd want it tested by double-blind tests.

 

[slowmotion]

I hear ya. I (personally) wasn't really talking about the tension as such, just the muting/deadening effect of a lower quality nut on the overall resonance, given that every little bit makes up the whole. I guess emphasis should be on the "little"...

Oh and

hahaha

 

[Victory Pete]

Saddle and bridge pin material

Just for shits and giggles, I also have changed my saddle to bone. Also a great improvement over the factory Micarta. Although if there is a piezo pickup under the saddle Micarta may provide a more even string balance. I also have changed the factory plastic bridge pins on my Martin HD-28 and D12-28 to ebony. Another great improvement. This can easily be proved by simply putting 2 high E strings on and having each kind of pin in each string. With all these changes my acoustics sound absolutely amazing, especially the 12 string. I feel the 12 string is super loud because of the extra compression on the saddle due to the extra tension of 12 strings, The same for the nut and also the increased mass of the headstock and machine heads.
VP

 

[Light]

Just for shits and giggles, I also have changed my saddle to bone. Also a great improvement over the factory Micarta. Although if there is a piezo pickup under the saddle Micarta may provide a more even string balance. I also have changed the factory plastic bridge pins on my Martin HD-28 and D12-28 to ebony. Another great improvement. This can easily be proved by simply putting 2 high E strings on and having each kind of pin in each string. With all these changes my acoustics sound absolutely amazing, especially the 12 string. I feel the 12 string is super loud because of the extra compression on the saddle due to the extra tension of 12 strings, The same for the nut and also the increased mass of the headstock and machine heads.
VP

Bullshit.

Christ man, you were gone for like 3 weeks - I thought you finally figured it out. No one wants to hear your bullshit. STFU!


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[ggunn]

Just for shits and giggles, I also have changed my saddle to bone. Also a great improvement over the factory Micarta. Although if there is a piezo pickup under the saddle Micarta may provide a more even string balance. I also have changed the factory plastic bridge pins on my Martin HD-28 and D12-28 to ebony. Another great improvement. This can easily be proved by simply putting 2 high E strings on and having each kind of pin in each string. With all these changes my acoustics sound absolutely amazing, especially the 12 string. I feel the 12 string is super loud because of the extra compression on the saddle due to the extra tension of 12 strings, The same for the nut and also the increased mass of the headstock and machine heads.
VP

Whatever floats yer boat. I think I know where you can find some 60 million year old tyrannosaurus teeth. Making bridge pins out of them would make your guitar sound ferocious, I betcha.