Cheap large diaphragm condensers ?? Please help me decide ..

[cjacek]

Hello,

Sorry if this topic was "beat to death" previously but I was just wondering which of the very inexpensive large diaphragm condensers you'd recommend. I was looking at the Nady, Marshall, Cad among others and they're all about 59 - 69 bucks etc .. new. I need one to mic an upright piano (in a carpeted room) and a flat and accurate freq response would be helpful. Please advise.

Daniel

 

[chessrock]

I was just wondering which of the very inexpensive large diaphragm condensers you'd recommend.

a flat and accurate freq response would be helpful.

I wish I could be of more help, but I'm afraid I just don't think those two requirements go together very well.

When I thin of flat/accurate, cheap LDC's don't necessarily come to mind. Generally expensive SDC's are what I'd gravitate towards . . . although I'm sure an Oktava MC012 might be okay, or maybe even a Behri ecm-8000 if you don't mind the rattlesnake hiss.

 

[cjacek]

Re: Re: Cheap large diaphragm condensers ?? Please help me decide ..

I wish I could be of more help, but I'm afraid I just don't think those two requirements go together very well.

When I thin of flat/accurate, cheap LDC's don't necessarily come to mind. Generally expensive SDC's are what I'd gravitate towards . . . although I'm sure an Oktava MC012 might be okay, or maybe even a Behri ecm-8000 if you don't mind the rattlesnake hiss.

Well, ok, maybe not "accurate" but flat and able to do a better job at micing a piano than an sm57 ..

Thanks,

Daniel

 

[calidus]

are you sure you need LDC? Anyway, check out this cheapos...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep03/articles/semics.htm?print=yes

 

[crazydoc]

SPB1 - get two.

 

[Gidge]

for LDC's in that price range the best you can do is a Studio Projects B1 ($79)......its a very decent mic.....about as flat and accurate as you'll get at that price.......

for upright piano the Oktava MK012 or Marshall MXL603 are pretty decent, but SDC's.......

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Re: Cheap large diaphragm condensers ?? Please help me decide ..

Well, ok, maybe not "accurate" but flat

That's what I'm saying. Cheap LDC's are never flat.

able to do a better job at micing a piano than an sm57

That shouldn't be tough. Pick one out of a hat.

 

[noisedude]

cjacek - to avoid rather dull threads like this, head down to the microphone FAQ made from similar threads on here at:
http://www.hr-faq.org/

 

[DJL]

Hello,

Sorry if this topic was "beat to death" previously but I was just wondering which of the very inexpensive large diaphragm condensers you'd recommend. I was looking at the Nady, Marshall, Cad among others and they're all about 59 - 69 bucks etc .. new. I need one to mic an upright piano (in a carpeted room) and a flat and accurate freq response would be helpful. Please advise.

Daniel

Save your money until you can afford a nice matched pair of SDC mics.

 

[Gidge]

if he doesnt have nothing decent, id get the B1 to use until he does.......

 

[cominginsecond]

if he doesnt have nothing decent, id get the B1 to use until he does.......

Ditto.

 

[Innovations]

I will agree with the folks that say that the B1 would be a good choice among LDCs, but that for piano I wouldn't have been looking at LDC's but instead have gravitated to the SDCs like the MXL603 or Oktava MC012

 

[Han]

The important question is: what sound are you after? A bright direct piano sound for a popsong? A more jazzy piano sound, a classical roomy sound? A very warm sound?

The kind of mic you use is as important as the placement of it.

For example, I recorded a grand today with an ORTF pair of SDC's right above the strings, some 4" away from the hammers, a pair of PZM's taped to the lid and a V69 at the bass side, plus a V77 on the high side of the strings.

Three very different sounds, the V69/V77 sounds very warm and full, the SDC's very direct and the PZM's somewhere in between, but closer to the SDC's.

Let us know what sound you want.

 

[Marik]

<I need one to mic an upright piano (in a carpeted room) and a flat and accurate freq response would be helpful.>

Cjacek,

What piano is that? Brand, condition... The very first thing would be to tune and regulate it well. There is nothing more horrible sounding on recording than piano out of tune.
One of the hardest things to record is a piano. An upright... even harder.
Whatever you do, they still sound like... upright--boxy, with lack of bass, we used to hear from grand.
Is there any particular reason why do you want flat and accurate mic here? To me, upright needs some 'embelishment'. It might be worth checking LDCs, as they might bring little bit more color and usually have a 'bigger' sound. The PZMs would be also good choice in conjunction with LDC. But again, it depends on many things. However, it is gonna be tough to do it with only one mic. Try to save and get at least two.

When you record, I would recomend to try to remove the wooden front board. It is not much fun playing for the pianist, but can help to make the sound more "grand" like. The board underneath the keyboard is also removable, and taking it off will help with bass response. As always, you will need to spend many hours for micing to get good results.
A lot will depend on type of music you record, but with a relatively good instrument you should be able to find the best compromize between direct sound and room acoustics.

 

[kristian]

Ok, I don't really have much advice on the topic of piano micing I have to wonder what the point of archiving all these posts are? This question has been asked half a million times on this site. This search for "large diaphragm condenser" brings 408 results. You should be able to get a decent answer with that. Luckily this forum has had a bit more meat to it lately with the mic mod threads and everything. I think I have posted twice in this forum in maybe over a year because the only topic is what condensor can I get for under $100 type threads. But really, why do we spend all this server overhead on archiving posts when no one uses them? I know I read th back posts a lot when looking for information instead of creating a new thread. But I bet we could speed this site up if we got rid of the mass of threads that are never accessed. Indexing, searching etc etc would definitely free some load up on the database server.

I don't have any $59-$69 LDCs so I can't recommend. But I would suggest following the above link and reading the 408 threads about this topic. I am more than sure it will create some vestige of an answer. Either way, happy recordings.

 

[Marik]

Kristian,

Yes, you are right--this topic has been beaten to death. To be honest, I opened this thread accidently. However, the question is about mics for uprights. I made an 'upright piano' search and got only 108 results. From a quick look at the first page I found only one, which was relevant to the micing, microphone use, and recording tips:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=104654&highlight=upright+piano


I have been recording piano whole my life and as I wrote, it is a very tough one to do well. Still, whenever I come to the hall where I played myself many times and made hundreds of recordings, I spend many hours for micing, finding best tonal balance, balance between direct and reflected sound, and most of all how all these apropriate to the particular style of performed music. Mind you, the pianos are: two wonderful 9' concert Steinways--Hamburg and New York, and Boesendorfer.

Cjacek,
I forgot to mention, move the piano from the wall for at least 3'.

 

[cjacek]

Thanks for all the great replies! Notes taken.

I'll try to answer some questions from you:

The piano I'm micing is a STEIGERMAN upright piano (pict attached). I wish to get a warm sound without any harshness to it. I just had it tuned a few weeks ago. The piano is in mint condition. I have moved it from the wall (can't go more than 2 feet tho).

I pretty much threw away (not literally) the sm57 in favor of the EV 635a mic and prefer it for sound (voice, piano etc ..). One thing I'm trying to do is position the mic so that I can play around with the frequencies without having to resort to actually turn any knobs on the mixer. I would really like to know how positioning of a mic (any mic) relates to sound quality and frequencies (ie: turn the mic this way and it'll produce less of this particular freq etc ....).

Thanks so much for the great advice!

Daniel

 

[Marik]

Daniel,

What kind of music you want to record? Jazz, classical, etc? Do you want to do it in stereo?

<I would really like to know how positioning of a mic (any mic) relates to sound quality and frequencies (ie: turn the mic this way and it'll produce less of this particular freq etc ....).>

Don't turn your mic yet...

To start, make this experiment:

Remove the upper and lower wooden boards.
1) Place the mic close to strings right above hummers on very left side (it is a bass register) hit record and play something using all registers of the keyboard.
2) Move the mic about 10-12" to the right, hit record, play again the same tune.
3) Repeit untill step by step you reach the very right side of the keyboard.
4) Do exactly the same with the lower (underneath the keyboard strings)
5) Play your recording back--you will hear that with each position the mic emphasised different frequencies.

Next step:
Do exactly the same, but move the mic further from the strings.
You will pay attention that there is some 'leaking' from other registers.
Next:
Do exactly the same.
Next:
Same.


You will pay attention the further you move your mic from the strings the more registers you will catch, along with room acoustics. Still, with every position you will hear that some frequencies are more prominent. This way you will be able to find the very best position for situation. Even more important--it will be your first step for understanding how to record piano.

I still think that you need at least two mics for recording upright. With the first, find the best tonal balance on mid-top register. With the second, fill the 'hole' in the bass. Most likely, you will place it underneath the keyboard.
Try to borrow a LDC and see what difference it makes compare to your SM57 and if it works for you.

Good luck, and report your experiences.