Changing keys of my recorded songs - automatically

L

lasagne

I fancy Fancy
Hi Fellas

I've recorded a few songs in the keys to suit my voice. The singer in my band now wants to record the vox, but of course he wants all the songs in a different key. If they were just one or two guitar parts and a bass, I would re-record them in the required key, but some of them are quite layered, and all of the solos I did on the fly, and it would be a pain in the arse to re-record all of the parts.

Would Melodyne be able to help me with this ? I can do it in Cubase, and I have, but the results are as I expected - not bad but a bit false sounding - the acoustic guitar sounds a bit like a ukelele for example.

I'd be happy to buy Melodyne if I thought it would sound more natural. Anyone got any thoughts on this ?
 
I have a magic genie in a bottle who can change the keys of all of your songs and make them sound perfect, without any artifacts.

I can ship him to you Fedex. The bottle is extra, by the way. Get a hold of me if you'd like a quote.

.
 
Why does the singer want it in a different key? Is there a musical reason for it, or is he just not able to sing in the key it's in at the moment?

Just IMHO...

If it's because he has a slightly limited vocal range, I would tell him tough, he has to work around it. The key a tune is in is for the benefit of the tune, not the singer. The other thing to think about is, when it's all said and done, how is it going to be pulled off live. It's all very well to transpose a recording, but how does that work in a live environment. Is the guitar work not going to be more of a pain in the ass to play in a key that would fit in just with the singer. I don't know what sort of music you are making, but I know that with my music, that would be a real bitch. My hands are where they are on the guitar beause thats where I want them to be and that's where it works best.

I know this isn't too helpful, but my feeling is that the technology used in recording/production etc is not there to fix the inadequacies of the performers. On the contrary. It is there to showcase the abilities they already have. And if you are transposing guitars to the point that they sound like a ukelale, thats a hell of a botch job you are going to be undertaking. And I'm pretty sure you won't be happy with it.

On the other hand, it could be entirely unrelated to the singers abilities. In which case my point, although no less valid, is void. :)
 
legionserial said:
Why does the singer want it in a different key? Is there a musical reason for it, or is he just not able to sing in the key it's in at the moment?

Just IMHO...

If it's because he has a slightly limited vocal range, I would tell him tough, he has to work around it. The key a tune is in is for the benefit of the tune, not the singer.
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with regards to transposition (not pitch shifting with a plugin), it's kind of the way things have to be when working with singers. Vocalists have a certain range they usually have to sing it. This is a physical limitation of their vocal chords and can't be changed as easily as it is for you to detune your guitar to get lower or for an alto sax part to be played on a tenor sax instead. Until they master stem cell research, we can't grow new vocal chords. So for now instrumentalists have to get used to just transposing their music. I don't think he's talking transposing the song as much as an octave but probably more like a half step or two. Believe me, I understand how it sucks. Ever play in a musical? The entire music is written around the singers and combine that on top of playing an instrument that is transposed anyway...you get fun key signatures like 7 sharps or 6 flats! At least with most contemporary music, it stays in the same key for most of the song ;)

lasagne-
plugins and programs like Melodyne CAN transpose it for you, but you may not like the end result. Many times new artifacts will be created or it will sound too unrealistic. As a band you need to discuss what key you're going to play the song in BEFORE you sit down, write it and then record it. You should have involved your vocalist before then. Without hearing it, my guess is you'll probably be best taking a look at the song again and rethinking some of the transpositions as well as the chord voicings.
 
bennychico11 said:
with regards to transposition (not pitch shifting with a plugin), it's kind of the way things have to be when working with singers. Vocalists have a certain range they usually have to sing it. This is a physical limitation of their vocal chords and can't be changed as easily as it is for you to detune your guitar to get lower or for an alto sax part to be played on a tenor sax instead. Until they master stem cell research, we can't grow new vocal chords. So for now instrumentalists have to get used to just transposing their music. I don't think he's talking transposing the song as much as an octave but probably more like a half step or two. Believe me, I understand how it sucks. Ever play in a musical? The entire music is written around the singers and combine that on top of playing an instrument that is transposed anyway...you get fun key signatures like 7 sharps or 6 flats! At least with most contemporary music, it stays in the same key for most of the song ;) .
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You have a very valid point. But really the underlying message of what I was trying to say is that this should have all been worked out and decided when arranging and writing. 'Fix it in the mix' to me isn't a viable option for even a dodgy guitar sound, so it's fair to say that it's going to be a bad option as far as setting the right key goes. The OP mentioned guitars sounding like ukelales. To me that sound like he wants to transpose way up. I think I was just confused as to why the singer was happy with the key at first, and now wants to change it.

Sorry, I'm also in 'god damned fucking lead vocalists' mindset at the moment for my own reasons, which can easily lead to not so rational thinking.

I still think pitch shifting with a plugin would give far less than desired results. I would say record it all again. But then I'm a masochistic workhorse perfectionist when it comes to making music, and redoing an entire tune doesn't bother me if I think it needs it.
 
Chessrock - I'm taking a wild stab in the dark here - I'm guessing you're saying Melodyne won't work satisfactorily.

I wrote and recorded these songs for me, in the key I can sing. Not to play in the band, but just for my own fun. Now the singer in my band wants to record them, and being a lazy bastard I want to try and pitch shift them rather than re-record the whole lot.

But if you think it will sound too weird, that's fair enough.

Thanks for replying.
 
lasagne said:
Chessrock - I'm taking a wild stab in the dark here - I'm guessing you're saying Melodyne won't work satisfactorily.

I wrote and recorded these songs for me, in the key I can sing. Not to play in the band, but just for my own fun. Now the singer in my band wants to record them, and being a lazy bastard I want to try and pitch shift them rather than re-record the whole lot.

But if you think it will sound too weird, that's fair enough.

Thanks for replying.
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As with anything in music, there are no rules and iit's always worth a try. It might turn out ok, but don't be too disappointed if you aren't too happy with it.

Best of luck, whate'er you choose to do :)
 
Benny pretty much spelled it out like it is.

I'm curious, though, as to what the two different keys actually are, if there's that big of a difference in the guitar sound. Can the singer sing in the same key, but an octave up? That may not sound good either, but it might be worth a try if retracking is too difficult to manage.

Otherwise, if there's going to be that big of a disparity, artifical pitch changers are just not going to sound right over that big of a range; you'll just have to either re-record the instrumentation or find another singer.

G.
 
Why not have the vocalist track an octave below it's current state, and use Cubase or whatever to pitch shift the vocals to the key of the instrumental?

Less work, same process. Less artifacts than the guitars should give you... Worth a shot?
 
He's not going to get down there ! One of the songs is in C and he needs it shifting to F - 5 semitones. I guess I could record a single acoustic track in F, get him to sing to that, then pitch shift his voice down to C, but I know it's going to sound like shit.

I don't think I'll bother. Mind you, they're great songs :) They deserve a great singer (which he is)
 
legionserial said:
If it's because he has a slightly limited vocal range, I would tell him tough, he has to work around it. The key a tune is in is for the benefit of the tune, not the singer. The other thing to think about is, when it's all said and done, how is it going to be pulled off live. It's all very well to transpose a recording, but how does that work in a live environment. Is the guitar work not going to be more of a pain in the ass to play in a key that would fit in just with the singer. I don't know what sort of music you are making, but I know that with my music, that would be a real bitch. My hands are where they are on the guitar beause thats where I want them to be and that's where it works best.
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that's so stupid it belongs in the cave...

ever actually learn your key signatures??? granted guitarists like open strings but an understanding of basic musicianship entails knowledge of them all...
 
lasagne said:
He's not going to get down there ! One of the songs is in C and he needs it shifting to F - 5 semitones. I guess I could record a single acoustic track in F, get him to sing to that, then pitch shift his voice down to C, but I know it's going to sound like shit.

I don't think I'll bother. Mind you, they're great songs :) They deserve a great singer (which he is)
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In my experience (limited) of shifting vocals, you'll gain far less artifacts shifting down, than shifting up.

However, I rarely have to shift my clients vocals. :o
 
dementedchord said:
that's so stupid it belongs in the cave...

ever actually learn your key signatures??? granted guitarists like open strings but an understanding of basic musicianship entails knowledge of them all...
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What does open strings have to do with it?

Once the OP explained that he was talking about stuff that he had already done, and was getting a guy to sing on it, things became clearer to me. I was originally confused as to why a band would record stuff that the singer can't sing to to start with. But that wasn't the case. I read a lot of posts asking how they can use stuff like autotune to fix problems with bad singers. I thought this was kind of one of them...with a twist, if you will.

I have a habit of not wording things too well. I wasn't trying to say that music shouldn't be transposed, I do it all the time. But not after I have recorded it. And sometimes I don't want to transpose, because playing guitar is about having fun to me. And if it ain't as fun or its uncomfortable to play another way, then I won't really be as keen to do it. Plus, I never claimed to be some kind of virtuoso guitarist.

I assumed the guys music had been recorded in a way that the band were comfortable playing it, after finishing the composition and arrangement, and, as I said, wondered why the singer would want to change the key. In fact that was the first question I asked, if I recall.

It seems odd that my post should offend you that much that you felt compelled to neg me for it, but whatever :)
 
dementedchord said:
you've never noticed how alot of guitarists can only play in A E B etc or at the very least "prefer" them???
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Oh that....lol. Yeah fair point. Thats why I haven't jammed with another guitarist in a while. But then most of the (admittedly, few) guitarists I know or have jammed with can either only play open chords. or have forgotten how not to play in drop-d. A lot of them struggle to understand how not to hit all 6 strings when playing a chord. And as such, for some reason cannot for the life of them understand the concept of a power chord....It's a power chord for crying out loud. WTF...

Needless to say. I don't know an awful lot of decent guitarists personally.
 
dementedchord said:
you've never noticed how alot of guitarists can only play in A E B etc or at the very least "prefer" them???
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In our part of the country they're not called guitarists. They're called wankers. ;)

G.
 
A fourth or a fifth is a pretty big interval to pitch shift something. It's very likely it won't sound natural, and you might have various audio anomolies cropping up.

The singer knows his voice, knows where he has to sing to sound good. If you are serious about these tracks, my opinion would be to re-record them in the key for the singer. Or find a singer that can sing them in the key you recorded them.

Assuming you are going with the singer you've already found, make sure he is present when you try out the new keys. You may need to experiment a little and try each song in a few keys to get it right. Don't just transpose everything a fourth and call it done, definitely test each song with the singer before committing to the new key.
 
I used to work with a female vocalist who, depending on the time of the month and how it effected her vocal chords/hormones/emotions wanted me to play the same song in different keys each time. The capo became a very good friend.
 
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