Changing entire set up. Please give me your advice.

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Brightside

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Hi

I’m at the planning stage of putting a new recording set up together & was hoping that you guys could help me out with your opinions & experience. I’d really appreciate the help & hope that one or two of you can stick with me on this. I’m aiming for this to become a reality by about Christmas.

I’ve been recording with a Korg D16 for about 3 years now & used an 8 track cassette multitracker for a couple of years before that & I feel that I’ve learned a lot in this time but obviously I’ve still got a long way to go.

My budget is an absolute maximum of £3500 (UK pounds), which is roughly 6000 USD or 5100 Euros. My wife has stated that she will definitely leave me if I spend a penny more!

I intend to keep most of my existing gear.

My current gear list:
Korg D16 multi tracker
Yamaha 8x8x24 SCSI external burner
2 x Focusrite Platinum Trakmasters
1 x AKG C2000B
1 x AKG D112
2 x AKG C1000S (I know, I know)
2 x SM57
2 x SM58
Roland XV5050 midi module
1 set of Yamaha MSP5 monitors (my ‘main’ monitors)
1 set of Yamaha MSP3 monitors (my ‘on the road’ monitors)
Midiman 4x4 USB midi interface
POD XT
Behringer 6 channel mixer (for monitoring only – Korg, CD player, PC)
1 set of Bayerdynamic DT250 headphones
P3 450Mhz, 256 memory, 20gig HD, W98SE, M Audio DIO2448 (I use this PC for midi sequencing, a little editing, surfing, office etc).
Ancient Casio keyboard (for midi input - it does what I need)
Magix midi software (good enough for me & I know it inside out)
Various stands, cables, pop filter etc


What I want from my new system:
Highly mobile i.e. quick to pack up/set up.
Quiet – for recording in the same room if required
8 track simultaneous recording (with easy expansion route to 16 for future) at 24/44.1
Could easily handle a 24 track mix with compression, gate, EQ, reverb(s) & delay on each channel if required + some groups set up with effects if required + EQ & compression on the master if required.
Flexible mics for straight pop/rock & being able to set up a middle/side configuration
Detailed editing functions
Reliability/stability


Application:
Tracking guitar bands at gigs & various locations. Location recording Brass/Orchestral/Choirs etc. Personal use at home for my musical ramblings.


My thoughts at the moment on what to go for:
My first decision is PC or stand alone unit – a natural progression for me would be something like the Korg XD32 but the lack of expansion/upgrade possibilities (inputs & effects), the noise & general ‘fixed’ nature of these units is swaying me towards a PC based system. My initial thoughts are…..

A Carillon package - Intel P4 3GHz, 1024MB DDR RAM, 120GB IDE Drive running WinXP & Cubase SX2 + an Aardvark Q10. Don’t know if this would have enough juice for track count/multiple effects?
Info at -http://www.carillondirect.com/clnweb/clnwebsystems/systeminfo.jsp?system=SX_Pro_Recordist&country=UK#info

Cheap headphones + 4 way headphone amp. (Behringer??!!)
No way I could mix without faders so – a cheap control surface (or maybe I could use my Korg for fader/solo/mute & just make do with the mouse for effects etc until I can get something better)
Studio Projects B3 to give me omni/fig8 options
Better SD condensers
30 Metre 16/4 balanced I/O snake, so I can get away from the source if possible.
A cheap 4 channel comp/limiter until I can get something better
A patchbay
An 8U + a 4U flightcase/rack to house the Carillon (4U), 2xTrakmaster (2U), headphone amp (1U), patch bay (1U), Aard Q10 (1U), XV5050 (1U) leaves space for a further Q10 to expand to 16 analogue inputs in the future.


No doubt I’ve missed a load of things out on this post but it’s a start. I think that the best plan would be for me to put most of my cash into the main PC with a view to upgrading the outboard gear/plugin quality when I can afford it.
Wow,long post.
Help me spend my cash guys!

Scott
 
First things first...

How important is your wife????
:p

Sounds like you've already got a handle on what you want. My only quibble might be with first, using a regular computer for mobile work as that's not the easiest thing to try to transport and, second, if you ARE going to use a standard PC, why not build one yourself and save some money? No knock on Carillon, but you're paying quite a premium for them to assemble parts for you. Still it might be worth it depending on if they will warrant it. All this is my way of suggesting you might consider a laptop if mobile work is going to be a major part of your endeavors.

I see advantages to both stand-alone units and computers and there have been a number of threads lately dealing with this debate. I haven't really done any mobile work in a loooong time so I'm not the most qualified to weigh in on that subject.

If you DO decide to go to a stand-alone unit, look closely at the Akai DPS24. It offers more than the Korg units and sounds better as well. Akai has good support and a track record of updating this product. I know there are guys using it to track and record live and they report that it's easy to set-up in that situation.

Good luck!

Ted
 
How about a Digidesign Digi002 with ProTools? With an appropriately powerful computer that will give you all the mixing capabilities you need, plus you get the controller, which also functions as a stand alone mixer when not connected to the computer.

By the time you've paid for a couple Q10's and all that other stuff, you could have the ProTools setup and also be learning to use the ProTools software, which is a valuable skill.

Just a thought...
 
Thanks guys

A few good points there for me to think about.

I think I'm drawn to the Carillon idea because I could rackmount the whole lot - PC, preamps, compressors etc & also have a warm glow of (relative) security in that the whole system would be set up & warranted.

I think I initially discounted the Protools idea as I just thought that it would be too expensive but I never thought about the whole LE system - I've just had a quick look & it looks very appealing. Control surface (with 4 preamps) & 4 other analogue inputs + ADAT (am I right in thinking that any additional 8 channel pre with ADAT will allow me to go 16 simultaneous record tracks via the control surface?), 32 tracks in the software & and increasing support for RTAS plugins sounds good enough for me.
Carillon (no, I don't work for them!!) actually do a complete PT endorsed LE system - PC, PTLE software + the control surface. It's beginning to sound very good - total integration, pre-configured with waranty & support though I would lose some 'mobility' as my preamp set up would be dependant on the control surface. Hmm, there's going to be some trade off somewhere in my set up. They have a rack mounted 002 but obviously it has no control surface & I really wouldn't want to attempt a mix without something. Time for more research!

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Protools LE software & control surface preamps/convertors?

I've read some good things about the Akai unit but I think I'm still swaying toward a PC set up for flexibilty of software & faster editing.

Thanks again - all advice is appreciated
Scott
 
If you get the 002 (not rack), you don't even need to bring the computer to the live gigs - it works as a standalone as well as a controller.

****
SonicAlbert said:
How about a Digidesign Digi002 with ProTools? With an appropriately powerful computer that will give you all the mixing abilities you need, plus you get the controller, which also functions as a stand alone mixer when not connected to the computer.
Click to expand...

GOD DAMNIT. I swear I'm Illiterate.

BUT, It is still a good point.
 
Last edited:
I'm from the UK, I spent £2000 and got a super duper awesome PC, a digi 002 rack, a Behringer ADA8000 (for an additional 8 i/0), two SP B1 mics, two mic stands and a rack unit from Digital village.

You could get yourself a great laptop and a digi 002 for well under your budget and then have some left over for a multicore (which you'll need for your live recording) and a nice holiday in the sun.

Email Digital village with your rough budget and need and they will sort you out.

With Pro Tools you'll get a top notch system well able to cope with 24 tracks of compressed, eq-ed and verbed tracks. Plus you'll be able to come back to the mix at any time or export your mix to any pro studio.
 
More good ideas there. I'm researching like hell & I think I'm definetly interested in the Protools LE/Digi002(rack) set up now. Still deliberating on which PC to go for - the Digital Village PCs look pretty good & they do a rack version.

I'm a bit concerned about the bundled plugs that come with PTLE - can anyone give me a steer on the compressors, reverb & EQ - are likely to 'cut it' until I can get something better?

Protein - how is the DVPC for noise - I'm likely to need to record in the same room from time to time? The holiday in the sun sounds great! (but I think I'd have to spend that money on better plugs :) What is the spec of your DVPC? Is there much power left when you've got 24+ tracks running with a lot of plugs going?

By the way - I could get a PT HD1 set up + 002(rack) & pc but have bugger all left for anything else. Funny how things are always just out of reach eh.

Scott
 
I use the Digi002 with a Music XPC and have had very few problems with it. The preamps on channels 1-4 are adequate, A-D conversion is just fine. Channels 5-8 give you inputs for your outboard pres. You get a very good control surface with touch sensitive motorized faders. I also use it for remote recording with my Roland VS1824CD, and it would work just fine with your Korg as well. 2 Neumann KM184's > Avalon AD2022 > channels 5-6 of the 002 > to the Roland by S/PDIF, bypassing the Roland's pres and A-D conversion. If I need additional channels, I go to the 002 channels 1-4 > out analog to the Roland, with the Roland's pres set for 0 input gain (line).
Yes, by using optical S/PDIF, you can increase input channels to 16. Onboard reverb is pretty good, if you want to use it for a live board.-Richie
 
I use the Digi002 with a Music XPC and have had very few problems with it. The preamps on channels 1-4 are adequate, A-D conversion is just fine. Channels 5-8 give you inputs for your outboard pres. You get a very good control surface with touch sensitive motorized faders. I also use it for remote recording with my Roland VS1824CD, and it would work just fine with your Korg as well. 2 Neumann KM184's > Avalon AD2022 > channels 5-6 of the 002 > to the Roland by S/PDIF, bypassing the Roland's pres and A-D conversion. If I need additional channels, I go to the 002 channels 1-4 > out analog to the Roland, with the Roland's pres set for 0 input gain (line).
Yes, by using optical S/PDIF, you can increase input channels to 16, going out to a PC by firewire. Onboard reverb is pretty good, if you want to use it for a live board.-Richie
 
Thanks Richie - that's a very nice set up you have there. Hopefully I can move toward that level of preamp/mic combination in the future.
I think Music XPC have a European distrubutor so that's another avenue that I can explore.
I am assuming that you use PTLE software? Could you spare a few minutes to give me a rundown on some of the features (I have had no luck searching for a full description of the LE software feastures on the net)?
Specifically, could you discuss monitor mixing (i.e is it possible to set up an independant mix, with some reverb for a vocalist during tracking without affecting the level of the incoming signal). Also, apart from using Audiosuite effects, is it easy enought to 'render' a track to free up some CPU if required? Are the bundled effects of a decent quality, enough to get me by until I can buy something better?

Thanks
Scott
 
Only so much I can tell you, Scott, as I'm at the very beginning of the learning curve. I can do everything you ask about, but frankly, I'm not too much help, because I'm doing it all with outboard gear, not plugins. I'm only beginning to comprehend Pro Tools. It can do lots of stuff I don't understand yet.-Richie
 
No problem Richie - Just after I posted that last note & I went back to the digidesign site & found some extra info that I hadn't spotted before. I also downloaded the PT free version so I can check it out - that should help me a lot. Took a loooong time to download on my dial up connection though!

16 tracks simultaneous recording via Firewire - without going into the technicalities about bandwidth etc does anyone think this would cause any problems or degrade the signal? I guess it should be fine but thought I'd ask anyway just to confirm.

Scott
 
I have a pc rig and a Korg D16 also. For remote recording, (though I don't do it often), I've used my d16 and then exported the tracks into my computer. Obviously the quality of the korg tracks isn't going to be as high as a protools 002 rig, but for demos it's pretty good. I know a few guys who have 2 d16's and sync them for 16 inputs live, again dumping the tracks into protools, cubase, etc. What I did is bought an Echo Mia soundcard, (I just use my pc for overdubs/editing/mixing), and spent the rest on the pc/software/plug ins. This would cost you considerably less than $6K, but on the other hand, you may find the d16 doesn't cut it anymore, which is totally understandable. My 2 cents ...
 
You may also want to consider the Motu 828MKII http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--MTU828MKII in combination with a Behringer ADA8000 http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--BEHADA8000 a Behringer HA4700 headphone amp, and a really good laptop with an external 7200 rpm HD. That would run you about 3K or so, give you 16 ins right out of the gates, a keep you rig down to 5 rack spaces. Spend the rest on the Studio Projects mic, Cubase SX (or similar), and some additional plugins. Just another suggestion ...
 
Thanks futurestar -I'll check out the MOTU unit too. I think I've just grown out of the D16 for various reasons but I'll still be holding on to it as it will come in very handy for various uses - the touch screen is fantastic & I can move around my D16 very quickly as I know it inside out.
Scott
 
Pro Tools Free

I've been playing around with ProTools Free for the past day or so & I'm really happy with the layout & features.
I was able to set up my channels, aux returns, busses etc in no time & the whole thing just seemed like it would be easy & fast to use. I wrote some basic automation & it was nice & straight forward too.

The only thing that I've got a concern with at the moment is the lack of delay compensation for plugs etc - I've never really used a PC for a full mix so I don't know how much of a problem this might be. I noticed the latest update for PT includes a delay compensation patch but it's not available for PTLE only the 'big' PT systems :(

Can anyone give me their experiences of PTLE versus delay comp? There are a lot of LE users out there so hopefully it's not going to be a major issue for me. I hope.

Scott
 
brightside - also try the demos of powertracks, n track, traktion,
multitrackstudio.com, and magix music studio. all under 100 bucks.
all are superb imho . all you need is a multiple input sound card with them.
if you dont believe me just try the demoes.
if you go to the powertracks forum at pgmusic.com . ask some folks there why when they own other higher priced solutions they prefer the 29 dollar powertracks solution to record with. i thionk youll find the answers interesting.....so i'm not accused of being biased as i use powertracks.
 
Thanks for all your input guys.

Having spent the past month or so doing research, playing with demos & generally reading as much as possible from the net, I've come to the conclusion that there is no perfect set up for me (unless I spend a lot more cash)!

So, I've decided that the main setup which best suits me with the least amount of compromise is......

PTLE & Digi002 rack with a rackmount PC (I'm probably going to get the PC from www.philrees.co.uk)
I've read mixed views on the quality of the 002 pre's & converters but, at the end of the day, I'll always have an upgrade path via ADAT to get 8 channels of high quality pre/AD.

For the other items on my list, I'm going to start other threads to discuss the options individually as I've changed my thoughts on some of the equipment.

If anyone has any good reasons as to why I should not go down the PTLE route, please speak up now!

Thanks again

Scott
 
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