T
tom18222
yes
is there a way to change the inlays or do you need to get a whole new fret board, thansk
tom
tom
Toonsmith
New member
You may be able to find a luthier to help you. If you plan to do it yourself, forget it. Hell, I'm an experienced woodworker but I'd never fool around with my guitar!
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
You'd probably need a refret as well, because it would be difficult to get uniform depth routed into the fingerboard with frets installed.
Are the inlays cracked out or is this a cosmetic thing?
Are the inlays cracked out or is this a cosmetic thing?
Light
New member
tom18222 said:
It is possible, and you do not need to replace the fingerboard or refret, as long as the inlays you want to have put in cover the area of the original inlays. You will need to find a luthier who is comfortable with inlay work, though there are a few companies who sell stock inlays, usually dots, snowflakes, diamonds, blocks, and a few other traditional designs. If you want a custom design, you will need to find a good pearl cutter. There are not many out there. Larry Robinson is the most famous, he lives somewhere in California (I am not at the shop, so I don't have his address here), but he is (hopefully) on vacation right now, as he spent most of the last two years doing the inlay for the one millionth Martin. It is not repair work, and is a different set of skills. You do not want someone who is not good, because bad inlay is just ugly. None the less, it can be done.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Z
zook250
New member
i recently just did the inlays on one of my spector basses. i ordered the inlay material in a 2 1/2 x 4 1/2 inch sheet of paua abalone. make sure that it is .050 thick. this is epoxy bonded and is very smooth and easy to cut. you will have to pull your frets, do this by heating each fret with the tip of a soldering iron, then pull them out with a pair of blunt edge pliers( im not sure the correct name). next cut out your inlay design on a piece of paper. i coat the back of the inlay material with liquid paper so that i can trace the inlay on to it and then see the design clearly(the liquid paper can be rubbed off after you cut the piece.) use a jewlers saw to cut your inlay. it is always good to have an asortment of files around to fine tune each piece,( i use standard files and they seem to work fine, get them at home depot or any other store).
the next step i use glue stick and then glue the inlay to the fret board. use a sharp scratch awl and trace the inlay on your fret board.remove the inlay. you can see the outline. take a piece of chalk and rub it into the scratch of the inlay, this will let you see the inlay very easily. next is routing the board. i use a dremel with the router base. you need two types of bits, one larger bit to hog out your desing , and one very small detail bit. some people go to thier dentist and ask for old used bits. these are also available at any hardware store. if you have inlays on the board already, route it out first. mine were just dots made of some kind of resin, you have to get rid of these first so that they dont contaminate the rest of the cut because you need the cut out material to mix with epoxy to maintain the proper color when putting in the inlay. once the orignial inlay is gone, cut out the rest, remember to save the dust in a container. then use the small bit to clean up the edges. try the piece frequently to get the tightest fit.
when all your inlays are cut, then its time to epoxy. only mix enough epoxy for one piece at a time. when you mix add in some of the dust to get the same color as your fret board. dont be afraid of getting any epoxy on your fret board, because it will all have to be sanded after it dries. i use 5 minute epoxy. use a fairly rough grade sand paper to get rid of the epoxy, use a block to get an even sanding, then use a lighter grade sand paper to polish up the inlay. that should be it.
i tried to refret but it is a little bit more difficult, i ended up having someone else do it for me
all in all it was very easy , i got a lot of info from various sites on the net.
this was my very first attemp and it turned out almost as good a factory inlays. ( spector crown inlay)
the next step i use glue stick and then glue the inlay to the fret board. use a sharp scratch awl and trace the inlay on your fret board.remove the inlay. you can see the outline. take a piece of chalk and rub it into the scratch of the inlay, this will let you see the inlay very easily. next is routing the board. i use a dremel with the router base. you need two types of bits, one larger bit to hog out your desing , and one very small detail bit. some people go to thier dentist and ask for old used bits. these are also available at any hardware store. if you have inlays on the board already, route it out first. mine were just dots made of some kind of resin, you have to get rid of these first so that they dont contaminate the rest of the cut because you need the cut out material to mix with epoxy to maintain the proper color when putting in the inlay. once the orignial inlay is gone, cut out the rest, remember to save the dust in a container. then use the small bit to clean up the edges. try the piece frequently to get the tightest fit.
when all your inlays are cut, then its time to epoxy. only mix enough epoxy for one piece at a time. when you mix add in some of the dust to get the same color as your fret board. dont be afraid of getting any epoxy on your fret board, because it will all have to be sanded after it dries. i use 5 minute epoxy. use a fairly rough grade sand paper to get rid of the epoxy, use a block to get an even sanding, then use a lighter grade sand paper to polish up the inlay. that should be it.
i tried to refret but it is a little bit more difficult, i ended up having someone else do it for me
all in all it was very easy , i got a lot of info from various sites on the net.
this was my very first attemp and it turned out almost as good a factory inlays. ( spector crown inlay)
J
John Mayes
New member
Contrary to Zook's experience I WOULD NOT attempt to replace entire inlays on your own guitar unless you can live with the fact you may very well mess it up, and have your guitar unplayable, and ugly. You may get lucky and do a bang up job, but inlay is not a easy thing to do, and make it look really good...that is even harder.
It can be done by pulling the frets, inlaying over the top of exisiting inlays and then re-leveling, and refretting the guitar though, and if you really want it done there are people out there who can do it. It would be pretty expensive I think...I would guess in the neighbirhood of $300-$500 starting out. You not just talking inlay, but also refretting, both which require some decent skill, and experience.
It can be done by pulling the frets, inlaying over the top of exisiting inlays and then re-leveling, and refretting the guitar though, and if you really want it done there are people out there who can do it. It would be pretty expensive I think...I would guess in the neighbirhood of $300-$500 starting out. You not just talking inlay, but also refretting, both which require some decent skill, and experience.
Light
New member
zook250 said:
Now, as a luthier, I obviously have some bias here. None the less, I have to say that trying to do this yourself is a very bad idea, because when you fuck it up, it will cost at least twice as much to have us fix your mistakes. And again, unless you want something like a full vine inlay, a good inlay artist can do fingerboard position inlays without removing the frets. Why add a $300-$500 procedure to the job if you don’t have to?
It is very easy to mess up your fingerboard by pulling your frets yourself. We have experience you do not have. That is why we get paid what we get paid.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
New member
John Mayes said:
Quite, but that would just cover refreting it. Extensive inlay work can quickly get up to the neighborhood of $1000, even without a refret. It is rarely worth it, unless you are getting a custom guitar (in which case, I still don't think it is worth it, though I will do for anyone who asks).
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
you guys are sure paying some hefty prices for refretting. As a banjo player, I know about inlay adding to the cost. But, there are many people capable of doing this scattered across the country. I do recommend NOT trying to do the inlay yourself. And..as most luthiers will tell you, it is MUCH easier with the frets removed...both for routing and for sanding. A total refret shouldn't cost more than $300....but then again, looking for the cheapest luthier is like looking for the cheapest doctor.
of interest might be http://www.custominlay.com
of interest might be http://www.custominlay.com
Light
New member
mixmkr said:
If the fingerboard is unbound, no good luthier will do a complete refret for less than $225. Our quote is usually $275 - $300 for a complete refret on an unbound fingerboard. A bound fingerboard will add $75- $150 to the cost. Our shop rate is not nearly the highest in the country.
There are all sorts of things that can add to the cost. The most expensive refret I have seen recently was a Les Paul Custom with a severely warped neck. The ebony fingerboard needed to be leveled. It took the repair person who was doing the refret three hours just to level the fingerboard. She was not happy. Add to that the bound fingerboard and that guitar was a real pain to refret.
And while it is a little easier to level inlays with the frets out, it takes more time to do the refret than to level them with the frets in place, depending of course on the complexity of the inlay. Less time means less money, so it just doesn't make sense of a simple inlay to do a refret.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
Light..you're the expert...and your prices seem fine to me. ..and yes, the binding is an additional expense.
yeah...replacing dots with squares or snowflakes...yeah...
add some lizards, dragons...drunk parrots... I'm sure you'd like the frets gone.
Deering banjos offers a service refret of $150, and as a custom order will bind the neck for $130 and $110 for the peghead....or something close to that.
Since I like my Deering banjo, (and Deerings' glue'd frets), I thought that sounded outrageously cheap for those prices.
Like I said...I shop for the luthier...NOT the price.
yeah...replacing dots with squares or snowflakes...yeah...
add some lizards, dragons...drunk parrots... I'm sure you'd like the frets gone.
Deering banjos offers a service refret of $150, and as a custom order will bind the neck for $130 and $110 for the peghead....or something close to that.
Since I like my Deering banjo, (and Deerings' glue'd frets), I thought that sounded outrageously cheap for those prices.
Like I said...I shop for the luthier...NOT the price.
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
oh...and Light.. have you ever had anyone wait (or kill some time somehow) while you did a refret?? In other words, get it done in one trip for the customer... say if they were coming from a decent distance away?? Make an appointment, come in the morn....pickup later that day?
What's the skinny on that policy with you and other luthiers you might know?
What's the skinny on that policy with you and other luthiers you might know?
Light
New member
mixmkr said:
We don't do appointments, ever. We have tried it, but they just don't work out for us. We could almost always get the instrument done faster if you just brought it to us in the first place. We will do same day service, but we charge double time for it. Next day is time and a half. The nature of the way we work is that the small jobs tend to naturally fit in between steps on larger jobs. And larger jobs can't be rushed anyway. It just isn't fair for us to jump someone to the head of the line if they are not paying for it (which probably doesn’t make it fair, but we are a business). Now, a refret is a bit more than a half days work, and it is physically demanding, and it involves a little finish touchup, so they almost never get finished in one day. They can be, but if it is not a rush job, it rarely happens. It is an unusual candidate for a rush job.
Remember, a refret is not just pulling and replacing the frets. You have to pull the frets, level the fingerboard, clean and (possibly) deepen the fret slots, cut the frets to length (if it is a bound fingerboard, you also have to trim off the fret tang from the overhang), drive the frets, dress the frets (level, bevel, recrown and polish), and then clean and oil the fingerboard. Now, our shop manager can do the fret dressing in about an hour and a half, but most people take two to two and a half. Watching him do fret work is damned inspiring. But that is only the end of the job, with a refret.
Speaking of fret work, there has been a lot of talk in the custom guitar community about stainless steel frets recently. Personally, I have only seen them on Parker guitars, so far, but I have heard some stories which make me wary of them. Rick Turner (one of the acknowledged greats of the industry) put stainless frets in Lindsey Buckingham's guitars (The Rick Turner designed Model One). A few months latter, Buckingham decided he wanted the frets smaller, so he took them to a luthier in Chicago (I don't remember who) to have them ground down and recrowned. It took EIGHT hours. That scares the shit out of me. The idea of making any of my employees spend eight hours doing fret work on stainless frets gives me visions of workman's comp claims all over the place. No thank you. I'll stick to nickel silver. It may wear out (eventually), but it will take a lot longer to get bursitis from it. Though they do make sense for the guys (I know a few) who need to get refrets every year or two. Now, part of that is that these guys are very picky about their frets, and they are not willing to have their frets dressed. Still, a fret dress lasts me about ten years, so I know these guys have better chops then me.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Z
zook250
New member
If you guys have seen the classic Spector crown inlay design you would know how easy it is to recreate. probably the same skill required to do stars or shark tooth etc. Im not talking vines or birds or anythink remotly challenging.. a refret job is a must after, and i agree with you guys that you should not try it on a expensive guitar, but if i would have spent 500.00 bucks on this inlay job alone and then later found out i could do it for less than 100.00 plus the refret and a little bit of hard work and patience i would have felt ripped off. your time is money( as you probably do it for a living) , fortunetly mine is not . i am learning a new hobby a generally having a good and productive time doing it. how did you guys get started? obviously not by sending your guitars out and letting somone else do the work,right? let tom buy a video from Stu Mac ,some esential tools and giver a go on some easy stuff. if he screws it up , he probably wont make the same mistake again, as i am sure everyone has screwed up before at some point.
Light
New member
zook250 said:
If the inlays are the ones in the picture below, we could easily have done the inlay job without having to do a refret for less then the cost of the refret you ended up having to get. That is, in fact, exactly the kind of job I am talking about when I say that you don't need to pull the frets to do inlay work. To my way of thinking, you spent more doing it yourself then you would have by getting it done professionally. That is, however, what usually happens. Do-it-yourself is almost always false economy.
Our next door neighbor bought his building about five years ago, and decided it would cost him less money to be his own general contractor. It is now five years later, he is divorced, can no longer work in his career due to injuries he got while working on his building, he is close to bankruptcy, and his building STILL is not done. If he had just hired a general contractor to do the work, it would have been done four years ago, he would still be doing the work he bought the building to facilitate, he would still be married, and he wouldn't be walking with a limp. Like I said, do-it-yourself is almost always false economy. If you are doing this because you think it will be fun, or you want a hobby, great, have fun. Just don't try to tell anyone they can save money by doing inlay work themselves, because it is just not true.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Attachments
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zook250
New member
Thats them. i did mine in paua. the luthier that is doing my frets is forsyth guitars, you would not have heard of him. i am setting up his pc studio for him and he is doing the frets for me even trade.
i know what you mean re:construction, i am a general contractor and the last job we did is Gimli hospital 11,000,000.00 contract.
www.boretta.ca
i think tom just asked a simple question and it got a bit off track. not trying to take bread out of your mouths or however the saying goes.
i know what you mean re:construction, i am a general contractor and the last job we did is Gimli hospital 11,000,000.00 contract.
www.boretta.ca
i think tom just asked a simple question and it got a bit off track. not trying to take bread out of your mouths or however the saying goes.
Light
New member
zook250 said:
I didn't think you were. I just want to make sure that it is understood that this is, really, a very specialized job for a professional. I don't do much inlay, myself. Most of our one off custom inlays are cut by Larry Robinson, and our production stuff (like our peg head logo's) are cut (mostly) by Tom Ellis at Precision Pearl Inlay down in Texas. We will occasionally cut pearl ourselves, but it has been at least a decade since we considered that to be the best option.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
J
John Mayes
New member
Light,
What is your name? you sound like you know your stuff but I didn't see a name in the profile. I'm just curious.
As for the cost of a refret that will vary GREATLY depending on where you are. Here in Oklahoma things are really cheap. too cheap. you can get a refret done by a respectable guy bound board leveling everything for $225-$250.
go to New york and to get it done by someone good your paying $500 minimum.
I would charge $350 or so at least.
At any rate I hope tom did not try it cause there is a really big chance the job would go south in the hands of someone with no experience. About a 99.9% chance
sorry I'm not too optimistic on that. But hey.. Screwed up repairs bring money to us guys who know what we are doing
What is your name? you sound like you know your stuff but I didn't see a name in the profile. I'm just curious.
As for the cost of a refret that will vary GREATLY depending on where you are. Here in Oklahoma things are really cheap. too cheap. you can get a refret done by a respectable guy bound board leveling everything for $225-$250.
go to New york and to get it done by someone good your paying $500 minimum.
I would charge $350 or so at least.
At any rate I hope tom did not try it cause there is a really big chance the job would go south in the hands of someone with no experience. About a 99.9% chance
sorry I'm not too optimistic on that. But hey.. Screwed up repairs bring money to us guys who know what we are doing