Chacopoyan Love Beads

[david42]

How's this?


I intend a do over for my song catalog because I haven't gotten consistent results as to eq and such. Plus there's the odd performance mistakes here and there which I wasn't quite as able to "fix later" as I once thought.

But before I do, I'd like some feedback on my first go round.

What I DON'T like: performance/timing errors. My vocals.

What I DO like: How multi-tracking can make me sound like a real piano player, kind of. The SONG. The mix generally.

But when it comes to the mix, I have monitored this on different good stereo systems, cheap computer speakers, 3 different headphones, and heard it on 2 friend's car stereos. I'd really like to hear from someone with $2000 monitors whether my mix is decent or if I have some kind of eq problem not coming through on my end, or that I'm too tone deaf to hear.

Thx

 

[david42]

Sigh...63 views and no comments. I see that others also have a lot of views and no or few comments.


Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying I don't want your opinion if you don't have high-end monitors...

 

[Telegram Sam]

I generally don't respond until I've had a chance to think about it and see what some others have said.
It is an interesting composition, but it seems incoherent, things are all over the place.
I would center everything up, and get a good mono mix going and then work on doing some
more subtle stereo separation. Its very busy too, you might cut out some of the piano.
The timing is all over the place too, timing is the glue that holds your song together.

 

[ido1957]

I wonder if anybody (besides the mastering guys maybe) has $2000 monitors....
Listening on earbuds at work....
A great deal of the mix seems panned hard l/r and it sounds too spread out.
The panning on the lead instruments throws me off - people often pan lead parts center.
The vocals are too soft/over-processed and I can't understand a lot of what is being said.
Sounds like the mix is overcompressed and is very "cloudy".

 

[david42]

I generally don't respond until I've had a chance to think about it and see what some others have said.
It is an interesting composition, but it seems incoherent, things are all over the place.
I would center everything up, and get a good mono mix going and then work on doing some
more subtle stereo separation. Its very busy too, you might cut out some of the piano.
The timing is all over the place too, timing is the glue that holds your song together.

Thx for the comment. I remember that TRex song, ha ha.

Yeah as I said I'm going to do it over because of timing problems in a couple places.

I was thinking of dumping the strings as they don't add much to it. Can you suggest some places where to dump the piano? I really like some of the phrases I pulled off after each line and hate to throw some of them out. But perhaps dumping the piano during the lines where there's vocals?

Since I'm gonna redo it I'm not gonna fiddle with this mix much more but I'll consider what you say about stereo separation.

How it is now: identical drum tracks hard panned L and R. Two different guitar tracks (though usually very similar) also panned hard L and R (probably what's bugging you). Vocals are centered, piano is centered if I recall correctly. Bass is centered. Strings centered.

The two guitar tracks do play different parts in the intro and then in the middle 8 (actually 16 lol). What do you think of centering both when they play different parts but hard panned when they have the same part? I panned them hard so as to create space for vocals center. Or maybe I should pan them 60 or 70%?

 

[fat_fleet]

What I DON'T like: performance/timing errors. My vocals.

Good you're aware of the timing errors. That's one of the major offenders here. Your vocals don't strike me as especially bad, just completely buried....which is a common reflex with people who hate their own voices....which is most of us. Just be aware of your bias and put them up with the rest of the mix.

What I DO like: [...] The mix generally.

Don't get too attached to this mix, it's pretty incoherent and needs alot of EQ work. Something is booming all over everything else....sounds like bass but it's all boom and no bite. I suspect your listening environment, like mine isn't ideal. Learn how your mixes translate to other systems. The drums are almost invisible and the guitars are weird fizzy mosquitoes. The song itself is pretty cool sounding and I can tell it would be really interesting with better performances and a better mix.
Start with the performances....practice practice, nail the timing, and try to capture a sound that will sit well in a mix, not what sounds good to you just playing by yourself in a room...once you do that, it will be a lot easier to mix convincingly. Good luck!

 

[fat_fleet]

I really like some of the phrases I pulled off after each line and hate to throw some of them out.

Anything you did once you can do again better with practice.

 

[david42]

I wonder if anybody (besides the mastering guys maybe) has $2000 monitors....
Listening on earbuds at work....
A great deal of the mix seems panned hard l/r and it sounds too spread out.
The panning on the lead instruments throws me off - people often pan lead parts center.
The vocals are too soft/over-processed and I can't understand a lot of what is being said.
Sounds like the mix is overcompressed and is very "cloudy".

You must mean guitars for lead instrument, unless I'm just plain remembering wrong what I did with piano.

I'm thinking real hard now about dumping the strings because I think that's the source of cloudiness.

As for vocals, the only way I can tolerate them is to dump ketchup all over them. i know people often don't like their own voices--heck I got the word "ketchup" because that's what John Lennon told George Martin he wanted cause he couldn't stand himself either. I'd far rather find a good singer but not much luck. I'm in a small town where there aren't many serious musicians and the few that are around have their genre trips (as I suppose I do too). At least you didn't say "get another singer" so maybe there's hope for me.

As far as not understanding the words, that seems part and parcel of rock and roll, I can't understand half of it either, lol. Bringing the vocals up and with less ketchup would probably make you say "you better get another singer," lol.

Compression: I don't think I compressed the whole mix, but don't remember for sure. Quite certainly I compressed bass, drums, and vocals, individually.

Thx for the comments, I'll ponder them further.

 

[david42]

Anything you did once you can do again better with practice.

beyond the rhythm parts, I am horrible at remembering what exactly it was I did.


Your boominess comment is the one that caught me off guard. I'm not hearing it, but will pay more attention in that area.

 

[RAMI]

How it is now: identical drum tracks hard panned L and R.

I know you said you'll probably re-do this, but just to save you time for next time. What I quoted above accomplishes absolutely nothing other than make the drums louder. In fact, when you pan two identical tracks, it doesn't make them "stereo". It just makes them louder mono. Save yourself the trouble next time. because you're just using up extra tracks for nothing.

 

[david42]

I know you said you'll probably re-do this, but just to save you time for next time. What I quoted above accomplishes absolutely nothing other than make the drums louder. In fact, when you pan two identical tracks, it doesn't make them "stereo". It just makes them louder mono. Save yourself the trouble next time. because you're just using up extra tracks for nothing.

I gotta diagree with this one. There IS something more to panning two identical tracks hard opposite than one track centered, more than just a volume increase, I am convinced of it. It sounds more spacious. Not saying it's the right thing to do here or in any other particular song.

I sure can't explain it, it doesn't make too much sense, but it definitely sounds different to me.

 

[ido1957]

I gotta diagree with this one. There IS something more to panning two identical tracks hard opposite than one track centered, more than just a volume increase, I am convinced of it. It sounds more spacious. Not saying it's the right thing to do here or in any other particular song.

I sure can't explain it, it doesn't make too much sense, but it definitely sounds different to me.

Duplicate tracks panned l/r are normally just louder YMMV.

 

[RAMI]

I gotta diagree with this one. There IS something more to panning two identical tracks hard opposite than one track centered, more than just a volume increase, I am convinced of it. It sounds more spacious. Not saying it's the right thing to do here or in any other particular song.

I sure can't explain it, it doesn't make too much sense, but it definitely sounds different to me.

I don't want to argue either.

I'm just trying to help you. There is absolutely no effect other than a volume increase. Volume increase has the psychological effect of thinking something sounds better and/or more spacious. But it isn't. You can't magically create "stereo" out of thin air from "mono". I'm just stating a fact, not an opinion, which is why I won't argue it.

 

[david42]

I don't want to argue either.

I'm just trying to help you. There is absolutely no effect other than a volume increase. Volume increase has the psychological effect of thinking something sounds better and/or more spacious. But it isn't. You can't magically create "stereo" out of thin air from "mono". I'm just stating a fact, not an opinion, which is why I won't argue it.

Well it would better characterize me to say I am interested in understanding what goes on rather than trying to be argumentative. God knows I leave a lot to be desired as an engineer. I didn't mean to be dismissive or rude and apologize if taken that way.

I realize that what you say and your logic makes perfect sense and I can't begin to theorize why it may be what I think is true. And you admit that there may be some sort of illusion of spaciousness or expansiveness created by doing this, even though it's just volume increase. I can accept, (if finally satisfied) that the illusion is the best theory.

But half of what I understand about a stereo mix is explained as some sort of illusion anyway. Of course, my understandings could be seriously flawed, too.

I dunno how, and I dunno why, but, especially in headphones, I really think I hear something just a little bit different, and I've had others note it too.

And a related question: Even if the listener is tricked into thinking they hear something they don't, is there something necessarily wrong with that? Is our art in the listener's ears or in the mind?

 

[RAMI]

: Even if the listener is tricked into thinking they hear something they don't, is there something necessarily wrong with that? Is our art in the listener's ears or in the mind?

No, there's nothing wrong with a listener "perceiving" or "being tricked" into thinking they hear something. It's the final result that matters. If it sound good or cool, then it is good or cool.

But that doesn't apply here. You're playing tricks on your own ears because you KNOW you duplicated a mono track. To test it on someone else, you'd have to do more than just compare the single track with the duplicated tracks, because of what I said about volume and perception. You'd have to compensate for volume. They would then be identical.

Like I said before, you can't create "stereo" from "mono". In fact, having the same source coming out of both speakers is the definition of MONO. When you hear a mono track coming out of the middle, there isn't some invisible "middle" speaker that came with your sound system. The reason it sounds like it's coming from the middle is because it's coming equally out of both speakers. So, in effect, by duplicating the same source, all you're really doing is re-enforcing mono, ironically enough.

I hope this helps explain it a little.

 

[david42]

Ok I have decided to remix this song tonight and try to get this version better.

My only firm decision is to get rid of the strings altogether and to see what happens with different panning. Drier vocals will have to wait for a do-over, I'm locked in.

Anyone have any suggestions specifically as to how I should pan, and what eq cuts/boosts I might make to clarify things? Any specific spots I might cut out some piano?

And my two guitars--should I pan them different, no-one seems to complain specifically of their hard pans. But thinking about it, while they are nonduplicative mimics most of the time, they are played in different neck positions, and that could also be mucking it up. Anybody think I ought to cut the near mimicry out, and just have one? The middle eight and intro need their distinctly different guitar parts, I think. So should I change the guitars?

I know some of this is hard to suggest without actually have the tracks, so I'm just asking generally what may have worked for some of you for similar songs. And I hope I'm not demanding too much, either.

 

[Greg_L]

I gotta diagree with this one. There IS something more to panning two identical tracks hard opposite than one track centered, more than just a volume increase, I am convinced of it.

Sorry dude, you're wrong.

One track in the middle = mono

Two identical tracks panned wide to each side = mono

Listen to Rami.

 

[Bubba po]

The title promised so much more than the track delivered.

Everything is panned so hard right and left, there's (paradoxically) no width or panorama to the track; it makes you feel like you're listening to it under an oppressively low ceiling. It's definitely lacking some sort of reverb, too. There's no sense of the music happening within a "space".

I rather like lo-tec "shambling" tracks, actually. They have a real charm to me that some polished tracks don't have. You just need to record the instruments better. There's no information on what your recording setup is. What are you using?

 

[david42]

I started this on a Tascam DP-01 but shortly thereafter got a 2488neo. I also did some editing with Audacity and mixed and mastered with Audacity for the version you guys are hearing.

I used an Ibanez Artcore semihollow for the electric guitars. One of the reasons I need to do the project over is because I forget what I did to get certain sounds and I'm unsure what amp I used, but it was probably Vox tube preamp into Carvin VTR-2800 (tube head) mic'd. Distortion and reverb.

The piano is a casio digital piano (I'm forgetting the model, but it's a high-end model, it was sold at MF for $1100, I got it slightly damaged cosmetically for $100 from a friend) and it was a direct in. I was gonna point out that I know it could use some reverb, it's completely dry.

Oh yeah my room is about 30'x19' with 13' ceiling. It has several large bookcases with books paper out along some of the walls. Thinking bout some bass traps as soon as I can spend some more on music.

Drums are semi isolated with books behind and shield in front, usually two overheads (matched Peaveys similar to 58's) and an SM57 on the kick. maybe the 58 was on the snare too.

Bass was an Ibanez short scale through a Carvin solid state head (Just coincidence, this is what me and this bassist both happened to have, neither of us are Ibanez/Carvin diehards, but they do work nicely)
Mic'd 2X12 gallien Kruger. These would have been mic'd with SM57 or 58, can't recall.

Vocals were into an MXL 990 and compressed the holy hell out of, reverbed, and probably have a touch of chorus.

Strings DI from the Casio.

I didn't do much at all as far as EQ or adding effects during mixing, mostly I adjusted volume and panned.

But I've fiddled with it for months so maybe I did something I don't remember.

One of my main objectives during a do-over is to WRITE DOWN what I'm doing so I can get more consistent results, and be more consistent with what equipment I use.

 

[david42]

I might've told you the songwriting is the strongest point of this MP3, and no-one seems to disagree. Since some can't understand the lyrics, here they are.


Lyrics:


Cloud people feathered by the air
Proud spirit find your bones down there
Somewhere
Long ages passed your ruins were found
Small dark ones tore your temples down
Macchu Picchu won't tell all it knows
She's something more than what she shows me

I wanna know most everything
Tell me Chacopoyan love beads sing

See the star that's brightest overhead?
You're at the top of the world (top of the world)
Where you'll be wed
From the mountaintop the trickling flow
Becomes the raging torrent far below you
River questing seeking finds the sea
Fire of love that can't be meant to be

I wanna show you most everything
Tell me Chacopoyan love beads sing

See the quipu taut from me and you
its knotted strings might tell you what to do
Says a people left us are no more
A clue left for you by your door
But if they call you will you hear
their parable's for those with ears

Haven't I shown you most everything?
Tell me Chacopoyan love beads sing

Come on now alpine evergreen
You're the one who makes Chacopoyan dreams

Golden Huascar! Last right Incan King!
Now know your chain binds everything
Sacrificial virgin so proud to be
Chosen to die to wed her deity
But one last moment life knows reprive
Love's not for vaulted treasures in Pizarro's deep



(You might say this is an argument I have with a girl in Wichita.)