Cassette v. 1/4" v. 1/2" (life beyond the DAW)

[GemSmith]

I've been recording strictly in the digital domain for a few years now (Pro Tools), and in that time, I've started to realize that the work I've done in recent time, even though I know far more about recording now, is missing something compared to the results I used to get on my old tascam cassette multi-track... Certainly the recordings I'm doing now are cleaner, and my mixes are better, but I'm just missing that analog warmth, saturation, and natural compression that you get when you track to tape... even if it is a cassette.

I'll still be doing all of my mixing and editing in Pro Tools, but I want to go back to doing all tracking on analog.

So as a solution for the time being, I picked up a lightly used Tascam 424 MKIII yesterday for $150, and I'm excited to start tracking to analog again, and I'm also excited to use the analog intereface duing that part of recording... it just seems so much more......... reel. (pun intended)

I already know that to get decent results on a cassette machine that I need to run it at 2x speed (7.something), and also that I should track to 'virgin' tape that has never been recorded on before... So I just ordered a bulk of 100 type II 60 minute cassettes for $50... How many times can you record over a cassette without degradation and noise?

So after all that background, my remaining questions are these:

Many of the 1/4" tape based 4-tracks are fairly affordable, and I was wondering how substantial the sonic improvements would be over cassette-based 4-tracks... Any thoughts?

OR, would it be better save my money and wait a little longer to get into a decent 1/2" unit?

What is the used market like on 1/4" and 1/2" machines?

Can you still find units in really good condition at decent prices?

What kind of price can I expect to pay for a decent one?

I've already been told that Tascam and Otari are pretty much the best brands of these two formats, but what are some good models to look for?

Thank you for any help folks... I'm very excited to dive back in to analog, but I'm just wondering how FAR I should dive?

 

[apl]

..........

 

[FALKEN]

best post ever. 5/5

 

[GemSmith]

Guess I'm a little confused... Does anyone out there have a bit less cryptic and a little more helpful reply?

Perhaps for some unspoken, unknown reason I'm just not welcome here?

 

[GemSmith]

Still wondering if I missed something?

If you've got the time to post something sarcastic, you've got the time to be helpful... It's just another choice to be made.

Not trying to piss anyone off, but clearly I'm not making headway regardless.

My questions were sincere... Granted this is a public forum so you can post whatever you want, including your inside jokes, but sincere answers would be far more appreciated...

You just never know when your vehicle is going to need a jumpstart and I'll be the guy standing there with the jumper cables deciding whether or not to help you... That was a metaphor in cased you missed it... no sense in being cryptic when one of the points I'm trying to make is that being cryptic can be irritating.

In short, I think some people tend to get lost in the anonymity of these forums, and forget that what you do comes back to you.

Or maybe you're just echoing George Martin's sentiments about 'not wanting newcomers to get involved in recording.'

 

[FALKEN]

Still wondering if I missed something?

If you've got the time to post something sarcastic, you've got the time to be helpful... It's just another choice to be made.

Not trying to piss anyone off, but clearly I'm not making headway regardless.

My questions were sincere... Granted this is a public forum so you can post whatever you want, including your inside jokes, but sincere answers would be far more appreciated...

You just never know when your vehicle is going to need a jumpstart and I'll be the guy standing there with the jumper cables deciding whether or not to help you... That was a metaphor in cased you missed it... no sense in being cryptic when one of the points I'm trying to make is that being cryptic can be irritating.

In short, I think some people tend to get lost in the anonymity of these forums, and forget that what you do comes back to you.

Thank you.

I also have been in your position. I was listening to all of my old stuff and I came to the conclusion that my old 4-track stuff had a quality to it that my PC setup couldn't attain. That is why I came here, same as you. I didn't say anything sarcastic. Your post has barely been up for two hours. Give it some time. Maybe do some searches in the meantime. This topic has been covered a lot. I can't tell you what the "market" is like because its a vintage/used market. could be anything. You could start by searching ebay for "reel" and "fostex" or "tascam". I personally don't have any experience with r2r 4-tracks so I can't help you there. sorry.

 

[GemSmith]

I also have been in your position. I was listening to all of my old stuff and I came to the conclusion that my old 4-track stuff had a quality to it that my PC setup couldn't attain. That is why I came here, same as you. I didn't say anything sarcastic. Your post has barely been up for two hours. Give it some time. Maybe do some searches in the meantime. This topic has been covered a lot. You could start by searching ebay for "reel" and "fostex" or "tascam".

sorry, guess I flew off the handle. Just figured your response was in response to apl's post of ....., rather than my post.

Thank you for your help. I'm not impatient, I just thought the responses were sarcastic/cryptic, but it turns out yours was sincere... Intentions sometimes get lost on the 'net I guess.

I've done some searches both here and on eBay, and I haven't come up with anything particularly useful in either place... Just the basics on the topic here, and it seems like whenever anyone opened this can of worms (as it may be), the topic is abandoned relatively quickly... As for eBay, I've searched on there for a few days now for 1/4", 1/2", and 1" gear, and haven't found anything good in a price range I could get into.

I'm an amatuer... maybe I'd best just stick to amatuer gear for now!

Either way, thank you for your help.

 

[FALKEN]

there is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your sound. Expect to pay anywhere betwee $300 to $1000 for a r2r in good working condition. now I am going to go against my better judgement and recommend some gear I have never used or seen.

try:
tascam 34
tascam 32
tascam 22
tascam 38
tascam MS16
tascam MSR16
fostex r8
fosetx e8
fostex e16 (this is what I use)
otari MX5050

 

[apl]

If you've got the time to post something sarcastic...

I posted the periods so that I'd be subscribed to the thread because I wanna follow it because I have similar thoughts.

 

[GemSmith]

My bad. I'm truly sorry. Now I REALLY feel like an ass.

Please accept my sincere apologies. Would anyone mind if I just delete the offending post in this thread?

I guess I'm new here, and I should act like it. I'm truly, truly sorry.

 

[apl]

My bad. I'm truly sorry. Now I REALLY feel like an ass.

Please accept my sincere apologies. Would anyone mind if I just delete the offending post in this thread?

I guess I'm new here, and I should act like it. I'm truly, truly sorry.

Nah, don't worry 'bout it. All is well.

 

[famous beagle]

I've been recording strictly in the digital domain for a few years now (Pro Tools), and in that time, I've started to realize that the work I've done in recent time, even though I know far more about recording now, is missing something compared to the results I used to get on my old tascam cassette multi-track... Certainly the recordings I'm doing now are cleaner, and my mixes are better, but I'm just missing that analog warmth, saturation, and natural compression that you get when you track to tape... even if it is a cassette.

I'll still be doing all of my mixing and editing in Pro Tools, but I want to go back to doing all tracking on analog.

So as a solution for the time being, I picked up a lightly used Tascam 424 MKIII yesterday for $150, and I'm excited to start tracking to analog again, and I'm also excited to use the analog intereface duing that part of recording... it just seems so much more......... reel. (pun intended)

I already know that to get decent results on a cassette machine that I need to run it at 2x speed (7.something), and also that I should track to 'virgin' tape that has never been recorded on before... So I just ordered a bulk of 100 type II 60 minute cassettes for $50... How many times can you record over a cassette without degradation and noise?

So after all that background, my remaining questions are these:

Many of the 1/4" tape based 4-tracks are fairly affordable, and I was wondering how substantial the sonic improvements would be over cassette-based 4-tracks... Any thoughts?

OR, would it be better save my money and wait a little longer to get into a decent 1/2" unit?

What is the used market like on 1/4" and 1/2" machines?

Can you still find units in really good condition at decent prices?

What kind of price can I expect to pay for a decent one?

I've already been told that Tascam and Otari are pretty much the best brands of these two formats, but what are some good models to look for?

Thank you for any help folks... I'm very excited to dive back in to analog, but I'm just wondering how FAR I should dive?

I'll try a go here.

---Many of the 1/4" tape based 4-tracks are fairly affordable, and I was wondering how substantial the sonic improvements would be over cassette-based 4-tracks... Any thoughts?---

The improvements are quite noticable and worth it in my opinion. However, there are other concerns (see below).


---OR, would it be better save my money and wait a little longer to get into a decent 1/2" unit?---


Yes, they're really not that much more expensive. You can get a good Tascam 38 for about $300 or less. But there are other costs. Reel to reel tape costs more (about $30 or $40 a reel. I think the reels are 30 minutes at normal speed, 15 minutes at high speed, but I'm not positive).

Also, head wear is a concern. If you get a R2R machine that needs new heads, you're looking at atleast about $180 probably (and that's for getting them re-lapped, which will make them good as new, but they won't last as long as brand new heads).

And, you need to have the machine calibrated and have the bias set. So ... that $300 Tascam 38 could turn into about $600 or so if it's not in the best shape. (If you happen to find one that's in really nice condition with new heads, it will go for about $600-$800 probably.)

---What is the used market like on 1/4" and 1/2" machines?

Can you still find units in really good condition at decent prices?---

There are plenty of machines available. IMO, the only 1/4" machine I'd consider would be a Tascam 388. It's a R2R/mixer combo that gets really good results. Otherwise, I'd go for the 1/2" Tascams or Otaris.


---What kind of price can I expect to pay for a decent one?

I've already been told that Tascam and Otari are pretty much the best brands of these two formats, but what are some good models to look for?---


Between $250 - $1000. Otaris will usually be a little higher than Tascams.

Look for these:

Tascam:
38
48
TSR8

Otari:
MX 5050 MKIII

 

[GemSmith]

I own a mixer, but it's a mackie 1402 - so not what I'd consider to be pro quality... If I stepped up to something with 1/2" tape that mixer would probably end up being my weakest link, no?

That Tascam 388 sounds really appealing given that it's got a built-in mixer.

Someone also recently told me to check out ADAT and DA-88 machines, as they feature analog coloration, versatility, and can be had cheaply... Any thoughts on digital analog in the analog-only forum? (or is that off limits? )

Seriously, thank you very much for the help so far guys!

 

[Wesleymino]

Many of the 1/4" tape based 4-tracks are fairly affordable, and I was wondering how substantial the sonic improvements would be over cassette-based 4-tracks... Any thoughts?

OR, would it be better save my money and wait a little longer to get into a decent 1/2" unit?

BIG improvement over cassette. If you've been happy with cassette before, you'll love 1/4". I'm of the opinion that 1/4" is good enough for most purposes.

 

[GemSmith]

I'm confused, is the Tascam 388 an 8-track or a 4-track? I thought it was 4, but from the searching I've done it looks like it's 8-track... Are there two different versions of it?

Also, I just read that it doesn't have balanced XLR inputs, only unbalanced 1/4" jacks... Is this a real negative?

The initial downside of the lack of XLR's is that all of my mic cables are balanced XLR's, but I guess cables aren't all that expensive...

 

[jpmorris]

I own a mixer, but it's a mackie 1402 - so not what I'd consider to be pro quality... If I stepped up to something with 1/2" tape that mixer would probably end up being my weakest link, no?

That Tascam 388 sounds really appealing given that it's got a built-in mixer.

Someone also recently told me to check out ADAT and DA-88 machines, as they feature analog coloration, versatility, and can be had cheaply... Any thoughts on digital analog in the analog-only forum? (or is that off limits? )

Seriously, thank you very much for the help so far guys!

The digital tape machines won't have the same colouration since the
operating principle is quite different. They also have a reputation for being cantankerous and eating tapes (the ADAT is a VHS deck, after all with all the alignment and mechanical problems that entails).

I don't use a DAW so I'm not really sure how you're intending to use it.. at a guess you mean to track stereo pairs and dump them into the workstation using the other two as a sonic guidepost, or for a timecode, or maybe just four channels of drum mics or something..

The Tascam 34 might be an idea for doing that, but if you're doing anything more you'll probably want an 8-track machine. There are many varieties of those. There are 8-track cassette decks from Tascam, 1/4" 8-tracks from Fostex, and also the Tascam 388.. but bear in mind that the track width on these will be the same as cassette and the '388 is only 4x faster than cassette (2x faster than high-speed cassette) so there might not quite be such an advantage.

There are many 1/2" 8-tracks, but the Tascam and Otari ones are probably most widespread. The Otari is the 5050-8 (which comes in three versions). The Tascam models are the 80-8, 38 and TSR-8 (which I use).

Then of course you have the 16-track 1/2" machines such as the Fostex B16/E16/G16 and the Tascam MSR16. I wouldn't go above 1/2" tape myself, unless you're happy to have a professional, cooker-sized machine (which will also be considerably more expensive to buy, run and maintain).

*EDIT*
If you must have an XLR machine, your options are more limited. Most of the machines remarked on so far are budget studio/home studio machines rather than true professional units.

The Otaris have XLR, but many of them use their own freaky pinout, and I'm not sure they're balanced anyway
None of the Tascam machines mentioned have XLR (the BR20 2-track and 1" MS-16 do though, as do the ATR series). The Studer C278 (1/2" 8-track) does have XLR, no idea if it's balanced.

And just to clarify, the Tascam 388 is 1/4" 8-track at 7.5ips (the others run at 15ips)

 

[EddieRay]

I used to do a lot of remote live recording to 4-track cassette. Even though 4 tracks never seemed like enough, I just loved the simplicity. I can't speak to all your questions but I will say this: always record a potential keeper to virgin tape. The only reason I re-used tape was for making copies. Every single time I did otherwise there was at least a minor problem I could attribute to the previous recording.

 

[famous beagle]

I'm confused, is the Tascam 388 an 8-track or a 4-track? I thought it was 4, but from the searching I've done it looks like it's 8-track... Are there two different versions of it?

Also, I just read that it doesn't have balanced XLR inputs, only unbalanced 1/4" jacks... Is this a real negative?

The initial downside of the lack of XLR's is that all of my mic cables are balanced XLR's, but I guess cables aren't all that expensive...

The 388 is an 8-track. I'm not aware of a 4-track version of it.

The 1/4" inputs aren't a problem if you're using an outboard mic pre. I don't know how the on-board pres are. The mackie 1402 you have wouldn't be a bad companion, and the mic pres would do nicely as well.

 

[GemSmith]

Wow, thanks for the great replys everyone... I feel like I'm getting somewhere in understanding the options available to me.

So if I've got this correct, it doesn't sound like there is too much to be gained by going from the Tascam 424 MKIII cassette 4-track up to the Tascam 388 1/4" 8-track... The tape speeds are identical on these two machines, and the tape width per track would be identical. What makes the 388 superior?

The other nice thing about the 424 MKIII cassette is that it features XLR inputs. It may sound trivial, but that's what I'm all set up for thus far with cables.

My intended uses for an analog deck are to do all my tracking to it... For example, use a 4 beat drum count in at the beginning of each track, and then dump all the tracks onto my DAW (pro tools LE via mBox), sync up the tracks using the transients from the drum count in, and away I go... That's my plan at least... any flaws in my thinking? Any suggestions?

I have a feeling that what may end up happening is that I even do mixing on the 4-track or 8-track and just dump it into Pro Tools for a little pseudo mastering, and then burn it to CD. I'm very excited to be working in the analog domain again, as opposed to staring at the computer screen and clicking a mouse.

This is mostly for my own music... I've recorded a couple small time projects for others so far, but that isn't my full intention yet at this point.

I've been spending some time listening to the Black Keys lately, and I read on this forum that they've done all three of their albums on a 388... Like 'em or leave 'em, I think their recorded sound is very good.

 

[apl]

I was looking at some on ebay. It looks like they don't have level controls on each channel. Can you run the inserts out of each channel to the mixer?

Oh, and GemSmith, you don't balanced since the cable runs are so short.