Carbon Net Zero

Slouching Raymond

Slouching Raymond

Well-known member
Is it just the UK government that is obsessed with this, or is it elsewhere too?
They are bankrupting Britain to achieve this by 2030.
I have just found out that I am a criminal, and liable for enormous fines (tens of thousands of pounds), because I am violating new regulations.
Worse than that, the regulations are set to be tightened, and are likely to become impossible to comply with.
There's a fair chance that I won't be here to see 2030.
 
rob aylestone said:
Yes, I think they’re obsessed. They don’t have the money to do anything properly, so it’s crazy unthought through legislation. Which are you falling foul of? I bet I am too.
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I became a retail and residential landlord last summer, when I inherited a large shop with a flat on the roof.
My crime is not having the correct energy performance certificates. The flat is ok, but the shop has a large flat roof, and would be difficult to comply.
I looked online for a record of an EPC for the shop, but there was none.
I spent last night thinking how to make it comply sharpish, instead of sleeping, which mostly involves insulating the roof and walls.
It is an old 40's building, and one long side wall may not even be cavity.
Ideally, I would rip up the big flat roof, lay insulation in the joists, then put new boards and torch-on felt over it.
The trouble is the shopkeeper tennant would likely get quite wet. Winter is not the best time for that.
Plan B is put a suspended ceiling in the shop, and stuff insulation on top of that ceiling. Getting a dry shopkeeper, but causing great inconvenience to them.
Plan C is build a new roooftop on top of the existing rooftop, but that would be a dog's dinner.
I don't even know the structure of the roof, and where nogins might be, but making surgical holes from above, and sliding insulation along might be a way.
The existing roof felt is in very good condition, and there is usually a large lake in the middle of it.
Any way out of this will cost a fortune, and being where I am now could also cost a fortune.
I did some research on insulation types today, and checked out what B&Q offer.
First I'll talk to the letting agent to see if a legal EPC just went astray, then sound out the shopkeeper for inconvenience toleration.
I'm in a difficult spot. Big fines if I let or continue letting without the right EPC, and if the shopkeeper has to leave, I get to pay £13,000 business rates per year,
while having no income.
If there is no EPC at all, that crime was committed years before I became landlord, but the fining regime went live and aggressive immediately before my
inheritance. Seems I was doomed from day one.
To compound things, my old back injury is playing up again. Ever seen a cripple doing roofing work? Watch this space....
 
My office is a converted terrace building in a row of shops. It's on a slope so at the rear car park I'm at ground level and at the front, I'm the basement - and the insurance company upstairs are at street level. My area is bigger than theirs as my office is in a single storey extension with flat roof. I seriously doubt any EPC certificates exist as the original landlord died and the lease transferred to his son. I suspect strongly that if the tenant is happy then nobody is bothered.
 
Isn't there any "grandfather" clause for buildings that were built 80 years ago? Yeah, if you're building new then the regs can and should be enforced, but unless you are doing a remodel/improvement, how can they expect compliance by making all regs retroactive? If possible, adding insulation to improve HVAC efficiency is nice if it can be done practically, but that's not alway possible.

There are significant wind farms is some areas of the US. Some local areas have acutally fought against them. I used to drive through a rural area of Indiana. One county had dozens of windmills, but the next county north had lots of signs of "Say No To Wind Farms" and politicians were pushing to allow them in that area.

In the US, things are quite as crazy yet, but if California is setting the tone, then all new ICE cars will be outlawed, and only EVs will be allowed. Cadillac and Buick has said that all new vehicles will be EV. they plan to be all electric by 2030. GM as a whole plans to be EV by 2035.

Sounds like a good plan until you see how well those things work when temps drop to -10 or -20F, and the batteries lose a big chunk of their ability to hold a charge. Batteries need to be preconditioned in cold weather, which takes energy, and if the battery pack is low on charge, it' won't precondition. That means it won't charge until it gets preconditioned at the charging station, and even then, it won't add a full charge. One report was that a normal 45 minute charge was taking over 2 hours. That's really helpful for someone who needs to drive a significant distance. Oh yeah, a number of the supercharge stations weren't operational.

Of course the best recommendation was to keep your battery charged and keep the car in a garage..... yeah, right. Odds are if you live in an apartment complex, you a) won't have a garage and b) won't have an outlet to plug in your car. Too bad for you. Call the tow truck to pick up your car.

It could make the oil embargo lines at gas stations in the 70s look like a picnic.
 
Can't say there on that side of the pond, here in the U.S. we have a thing called Grandfathering, what was legal before new laws/regulations come into effect is legal non-conforming after the new law. It is designed to not place an undue burden on folks/property owners. For instance if a new law says all sheds/outbuildings must be 10 feet from the property line, but I have a shed that following old regs is 5 feet from the property line I don't have to tear down or move my shed. It's grandfathered, legal non-conforming. Seems you would have something similar in the UK.

Something strange(to me) and similar I guess to your situation: The this old house the wife and I purchased in '22 had additions to the original house built in '47. Strange...strange!, the kitchen and eat-in area had a tar and gravel floor thing going on in the attic above. It almost for me made the purchase a no, but the wife was unphased. Some time in the past the previous owner had a gable roof built over not only the kitchen & eat-in, but also over a laundry area(which was previously an enclosed porch), and a side porch which was previously outside of the home(the side porch footprint was expanded creating a now enclosed room). It took a little work but I removed the tar/gravel on (the floor) of the attic, no sign of water damage from it previously being the actual roof. In part I cleared the floor for the air handler for the new heat pump system we had installed.The attic has quite a bit of nice standing area height and I'd like to finish it off for use, man-cave, studio, bedroom, whatever. Insulating the rafters would be a definite must. I've not taken a deep dive into the subject matter, but the depth of the rafters comes into play. The depth must accommodate the required by govt regulations proper insulation factor as well as a space between the top of the insulation and the bottom of the roof sheathing. A space for airflow to prevent condensation, the insulation getting wet, and possibly mold. Air flow baffles. Top down, bottom of the roof sheathing, air flow baffles, insulation, drywall. I've yet to do the calculations but in my case I suspect it would involve wood furring strips attached to the bottoms of the rafters to increase the depth to accommodate the required amount of insulation.

Honestly, building an entire gable roof above the flat roof on your property sounds a really expensive solution. Given the government has put you in this position, are there no grants or programs to assist property owners to come into compliance with new laws/regulations? Seems only fair if they will not grandfather older structures.
 
rob aylestone said:
I suspect strongly that if the tenant is happy then nobody is bothered.
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Believe me, they'll come after him sooner or later. That son is the same as me.
They like collecting free money.
I went to see the firm of letting agents only last week, to check whether my foreign flat residents had the right to live here.
They did, but otherwise I would get a £10,000 fine (per occupant) for the first offence, then £20,000 fines (per occupant) for subsequent offences.

TalismanRich said:
In the US, things are quite as crazy yet, but if California is setting the tone, then all new ICE cars will be outlawed, and only EVs will be allowed. Cadillac and Buick has said that all new vehicles will be EV. they plan to be all electric by 2030. GM as a whole plans to be EV by 2035.
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So, it is pretty much the same in US.
You want to move people around, so you move heavy lithium batteries plus people.
I say they should leave the heavy lithium batteries out of it.
We had a state of the art system of electric trolley-busses in some cities, that were scrapped 80 years ago.
We also had an idiot called Lord Beeching who decided cars were the future, so closed all the local railway branch lines.

Mick Doobie said:
Can't say there on that side of the pond, here in the U.S. we have a thing called Grandfathering, what was legal before new laws/regulations come into effect is legal non-conforming after the new law. It is designed to not place an undue burden on folks/property owners. For instance if a new law says all sheds/outbuildings must be 10 feet from the property line, but I have a shed that following old regs is 5 feet from the property line I don't have to tear down or move my shed. It's grandfathered, legal non-conforming. Seems you would have something similar in the UK.
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The Grandfathering sounds like a great idea. There are far older properties than mine here. When I worked for a building firm in 77, we worked at a house with no foundations.
Just bricks laid straight onto dirt. Insulating a regular house with a pitched roof is easy. I did my own house for £60 in one day.

When you get an Energy Performance Certificate, they make suggestions of how you can improve your rating.
They list: Installing a windmill, Installing Solar panels, and installing Heat Pumps.
I have seen mention of grants and exemptions. They didn't seem to apply to me. They are for historic Listed buildings, where you wouldn't be allowed to install a heat pump.

It is not just rented buildings. In a few years, even stricter rules will apply to ALL buildings.
Right now, my shop must be level E.
Next year it must be level C.
In 2028 it must be level B.
You can't let it unless it complies, and you can't sell it unless it complies.
 
Slouching Raymond said:
You can't let it unless it complies, and you can't sell it unless it complies.
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But sure as hell the government will put a lien on your property and confiscate it if you can’t, or won’t bring it into compliance with their ‘regulations’.

Welcome to Agenda 21 and agenda 2030.
The green new deal, build back better and all that crap.
 
Slouching Raymond said:
Believe me, they'll come after him sooner or later. That son is the same as me.
They like collecting free money.
I went to see the firm of letting agents only last week, to check whether my foreign flat residents had the right to live here.
They did, but otherwise I would get a £10,000 fine (per occupant) for the first offence, then £20,000 fines (per occupant) for subsequent offences.


So, it is pretty much the same in US.
You want to move people around, so you move heavy lithium batteries plus people.
I say they should leave the heavy lithium batteries out of it.
We had a state of the art system of electric trolley-busses in some cities, that were scrapped 80 years ago.
We also had an idiot called Lord Beeching who decided cars were the future, so closed all the local railway branch lines.


The Grandfathering sounds like a great idea. There are far older properties than mine here. When I worked for a building firm in 77, we worked at a house with no foundations.
Just bricks laid straight onto dirt. Insulating a regular house with a pitched roof is easy. I did my own house for £60 in one day.

When you get an Energy Performance Certificate, they make suggestions of how you can improve your rating.
They list: Installing a windmill, Installing Solar panels, and installing Heat Pumps.
I have seen mention of grants and exemptions. They didn't seem to apply to me. They are for historic Listed buildings, where you wouldn't be allowed to install a heat pump.

It is not just rented buildings. In a few years, even stricter rules will apply to ALL buildings.
Right now, my shop must be level E.
Next year it must be level C.
In 2028 it must be level B.
You can't let it unless it complies, and you can't sell it unless it complies.
Click to expand...

That's just nuts. I mean literally nuts. It's not sustainable, those ever increasing compliance requirements.

It would appear RFR is unfortunately correct...."You will own nothing and be happy".
 
Mick Doobie said:
That's just nuts. I mean literally nuts. It's not sustainable, those ever increasing compliance requirements.

It would appear RFR is unfortunately correct...."You will own nothing and be happy".
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I don’t meant to turn this into some ‘conspiracy theory’ thread.
But then again, the conspiracy theorists are right again. Many have warned of scenarios such as this for a long time.

Now, the harsh reality of what they’re pushing for is plain to see.

It’s quite sad and I hope you ( @Slouching Raymond ) come out of this unscathed.

People need to be aware of these agendas, and do whatever they legally can to fight this crap.
 
If I get these huge fines, and don't pay, they will send baliffs to my home to auction off all my music gear for a song. (One of Manslick's perhaps)

It is all pure lunacy.
It was all kicked off by the 'European Union' in 2007.
A homeowner became required to pay for a 'Home Information Pack', before trying to sell or let their property, and provide them to potential buyers.
Part of that Pack was the Energy Performance Certificate.
When they were introduced, I thought they were a total waste of time and money, and pointless bureaucracy.
If I were looking for a house, I would assess it with my own eyes, and make up my own mind. I would not pay any attention to certificates.
It is important to understand that any house consumes no energy at all. In the summer it warms up, and in winter it cools down.
It is the people that occupy a house that choose to consume energy.
In 2016 the UK people voted to leave the bureaucratic European Union, and we are now no longer a member.
But this bureaucracy has stuck.

Many people inherit nothing at all, so getting a large shop and flat might be seen as privilege.
If it all just ticked over, I could enjoy a comfortable retirement, as long as I don't go mad.
I currently have a happy shop tenant, and happy flat tenants.
I planned to keep them happy, by dealing with any issues promptly, and keeping the rent reasonable.
The heavy handed EPC gestapo have other ideas.
If I have to turf out happy tenants, due to not making the EPC grade, there will be no money to pay for any improvements.
Also the law prevents me from turfing out tenants. They have rights.
It would be a major disruption and cost to the shop tenant, if they have to move at a moment's notice.

I am all for maximum insulation.
I am all for electric solar panels, and want to install them on my own house, and the shop, just as soon as I can afford it.
I am not yet convinced that Heat Pumps are useful.
The government's approach is all stick and no carrot.
The would achieve more by sending a friendly energy official to discuss potential improvements with property owners, than fining the hell out of them.
 
I may have done this badly - but the law seems to state you MUST have an EPC certificate but it does not seem to matter if it is bad? So could you just get one, and they'll give you the poorest standard one and that's it, done. It doesn;t seem to say you must have a GOOD EPC, just have one done?

No grandfather rights I can find,
 
rob aylestone said:
I may have done this badly - but the law seems to state you MUST have an EPC certificate but it does not seem to matter if it is bad? So could you just get one, and they'll give you the poorest standard one and that's it, done. It doesn;t seem to say you must have a GOOD EPC, just have one done?
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Sadly, when they introduced EPCs for commercial premesis in 2018, they started fairly low at E. Getting an F or G will not impress them.
I guess G might be an open sided barn.
 
BTStudio said:
Would injecting insulation into the cavities be an option. I do believe they can just shoot it in through small holes.
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It would. Cavity wall insulation can be injected from the outside wall on one side.
The cavity wall on the other side (beyond the peddles in the picture, is just inches away from the next door building.
I sounded out the shopkeeper for the inconvenience caused by access, and he is not keen, but I think it could be injected from the top of the wall.
This would mean making a series of smallish holes along the far side of the roof.
I plan to make a surgical inspection hole somewhere on that puddled section, to see if there is already at least some insulation inside the roof. That would help.
I know the area off the left of the picture has some roof insulation, because I photographed it from below when I investigated a water leak.
If the measures above all happen, that just might get me the right certificate.
 
Here is a sticker off my computer monitor:
It tells me that my LCD monitor with switched mode power supply is bad.
It takes far less power than than any old crt monitor.
Note the European Union flag top left.
It just tells you how much they assessed it for energy use. It is for the purchaser to see, before they decide to buy an A or a G.
This is the very same system the are applying to all rented property, except if the assessor places it in the wrong band, it
means huge fines and ruin for the property owner.
If I spent every penny I have trying to achieve the desired band, it may well still not be good enough.
So what is the point in spending any money at all?
I could just forget about the shop.
I'll not bore you any more about this.
Energy Performance.png
 
I’m wondering if there are companies available to assess your buildings performance level, and recommend how it can be brought up to current standards? If you could get a better idea of what you really need to do you might be able to make a decision of what direction you want to go in a timely manner before the shit hits the fan
 
BTStudio said:
I’m wondering if there are companies available to assess your buildings performance level, and recommend how it can be brought up to current standards? If you could get a better idea of what you really need to do you might be able to make a decision of what direction you want to go in a timely manner before the shit hits the fan
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Thanks BTStudio. I just discussed the situation with my brother, and this is the very strategy that emerged. Arranging an official assessment to see what score I get with no work would be a start, which will also put me on their radar, and ask what I would have to do to comply. Then try to reason with them, to give me a way to get the work done.
I will be dealing with jobsworth officials though.
 
Slouching Raymond said:
Thanks BTStudio. I just discussed the situation with my brother, and this is the very strategy that emerged. Arranging an official assessment to see what score I get with no work would be a start, which will also put me on their radar, and ask what I would have to do to comply. Then try to reason with them, to give me a way to get the work done.
I will be dealing with jobsworth officials though.
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Lol well good luck. I found over here in Canada it helps quite a bit to be at least trying.
 
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