Can you learn or is it a gift?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Agtronic
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EddieRay is right. being a virtuoso doesn't neccesseraly mean that you have to be a maestro also.

My cousin plays "Kanun" ( a local and very hard to play instrument) since he was 4 and he was signed to be a professional since he was 6. I am sure his knowledge of music theory beats anyone around here.

He is 20 now and not yet any composition but he plays like a dream. He says that there were lots of pieced waiting to be played why he had to bother making a new one. ???
 
Originally posted by Calwood Agtronic,......Am I getting this wrong? Youve been playing guitar for 15 or 16 years,..and you havent made up stuff? Or is it that the stuff you come up with,...sucks? Surely over that time period you MUST have come up with riffs that really jam. Put some of your favorites together and VIOLA,..youre half way there. If you havent come up with ANYthing in 15 years,.....ummmmm,..well,...maybe you dont have it in you. Somebody's gotta bitch me out for sayin' that. And,..well,...its probably deserved but,...15 years!!!!! Yikes!

Later,...
Calwood [/B]
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That's more/less what I'm thinking. I don't have ANYTHING. NOT ONE SIMPLE CHORD PROGRESSION, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! :D

Actually, I wrote something once, I was 11 or 12, some guy came over and told me this chick wanted to know me, so he told me to record a song and that she'd go crazy for me if I wrote something for her and this guy wasn't a musician or anything, but he knew I played well. Turns out he told the girl he wrote the song for her. (Apparently she wasn't too impressed either). :D

The song was, A, C, D, in a loop. Most basic piece of garbage I ever played. But I can record something like "Always with You, Always with Me" by Joe Satriani and it will sound exactly the same, bend for bend, same feel and everything. But I can't invent anything for the life of me.

What really sparked this new interest in songwriting for me was George Harrison's Cloud Nine album. My dad bought it back in the day, when it had just came out, and I've listened to it since I was a little guy, but just recently I started listening to it again, and I was amazed at how well the chords worked together, the harmonies are just amazing. I don't understand, the chords are right there, so simple, just simple rules of harmony, but for some reason, it's like they just go so well together when George Harrison writes the song. "This is lo-lo-lo-lo-love ..." just BEAUTIFUL songs, they give me goosebumps.
 
I know fine classical musicians who cannot improvise to a 12-bar blues.

Most anything seems easier if you know how to do it already.

There are all different kinds of songwriters, from super-successful pop machines who are more about craft than art to avant-garde experimentalists who never let anyone hear their work.

I agree that almost everyone has the potential to write songs, especially if quality and originality are not considerations :D

I think that if you've done it before in an inspired way you can go back and do it even if you are not inspired. You can get your brain back into it. Synapse memory.

Most people can't write songs at all. They can't get their brains to work that way. On the other hand, Agtronic, you ARE a musician, and you want to write, not just because you feel you should, but also because you want to have that sensation of having created a really cool song.

But the fact that you've been making music for so long without being able to write anything tells me that you can't just sit down and do it. First, you have to learn how to open up the part of yourself that will make it possible for you to write. (This is a different way of looking at the "grabbing it out of the ether" theory.)

You may ask yourself, "how"? Ah, grasshopper, this is a question you must answer for yourself. Meditation? Psychoanalysis? Getting dumped by someone you love (see above)? Days of uninterrupted sex? Reading? Going to museums? Golf? Consider the possibility that the artist in you sees the world with different eyes.
 
all things come in time I heard..... I hope thats true cause I'm a fucking terrible musician atm :D
 
dude if you can rip satriani. you can write a song.

what we have not done is always difficult by its unfamiliarity... just give yourself time to get used to it.

entertaining thoughts such as "you can't" are just distractions and procrastination. in fact, this whole thread is just fodder for you to ponder instead of getting to that songwriting!

peace and all the best
 
This question takes me back to when I was starting out. I thought it was a "gift" and I thought I didnt have it. My first song I wrote was with a friend, he wrote his own parts and I my own. Well mines sucked and his didnt. So from then on I took the mindset of I'll just sing and let someone else do the writeing. Well after a few weeks of trying to find someone to write I got annoyed and forced myself to write. On my second attempt the song came out so perfectly I realzed it wasnt a gift, its a state of mind. Everyone can write you just have to belive you can and also just write about what you know. Dont try to write about things you havent experianced, the results are always infirior to your hearts writing.
 
Talent: 2% gift, 98% hard work.
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True that is. In the first beginning, it was a gift of playing... so they told me. Now, I'm thinking it was pure luck that I got into music easy. Now with the writing, it was good ... now? Like griffon65 said sucks and sucks hard. I song write and write poetry. What I feel is my poetry sucks more than my song writing. Though people say it doesn't that much. But I'm determined to practice harder to be better.
 
Another important skill is being able to play on an instrument what you imagine in your head. Your familiarity with the instrument has to be pretty good. Otherwise, trying to search out melodic or harmonic ideas on the instrument a note at a time is kind of a buzzkill and your idea may slip away.
 
If you're stuck trying to come up with new melodies and harmonic ideas, try listening to a bunch of different music genres. I'm not talking boucing around the Top 40 stuff. Even if you don't undestand or don't like it, check out classical music. There is a wealth of knowledge in 20th century music (Stravinsky, Bartok, Xenakis, etc) and it may really blow your mind. Want to mess with your ears? Check out some atonal music - it may sound like a mess but listen with an open mind and something may really strike you.

Check out jazz too, from Coltrane to Monk to Ellington to Kurt Elling.

Getting into world music can open up another side of your brain. Not just music from India, but traditional music of China (kabuki theatre), gamelon music, throat singing (singing 2 pitches at once, Morroco I think has that tradition as well as other countries).

What I'm getting at, if you always listen to the same type of music, you'll end up writing the same type of music. Make a point once in awhile to listen to something so far away from what you do, and you may be suprised with it's effect on your writing.

As far as lyrics go, check out some heavy poets. Though they may not rhyme, they may help you find a creative way to construct your words and thoughts onto paper.
 
Here is my take on the whole thing. What are you passionate about? Write about what you feel strongly about, perhaps from differing people's perspectives.

Continually improve your vocabulary. Lifelong. It'll help you express yourself so the rest of us can understand you, and what you need.

You know when you're just dickin' around on the guitar, just picked it up and are not really conscious yet on the instrument, look to those little bits for excellent fertilizer for new songs.

Conversely, look to where you've found anomalies, weird things that you've found that only seem to happen when you play that one chord, or whatever. As a boring example, I would say playing a 12 fret harmonic Eminor on the e,b, and g strings, and reaching around the nut ( on an electric) and cranking on the g string to make the E minor major would be a bit of an anomaly. Course the 5 fret works 2.

Put yourself in other people's shoes, man, imagine like a novelist does. You'll be writin' killer stuff.

Go get 'em.
 
I guess I'll be the one with the dissenting opinion here (sort of)

While I think it true anyone can write "a song" I don't think it necessarily follows that they can write a song worth anything. Realizing fully that it's always a matter of subjective taste.

I believe the basic element in songwriting (or any art form) is creativity and that you either have or you don't. I do not believe that is something teachable to anyone.

Practicing songwriting surely makes it easier the more one practices, however again if the basic creative way of looking at things isn't there all the practice in the world only means one is very good at writing crappy songs.

Some are great technicians i.e., studio musicians, which comes from discipline and practice but cannot write a lick on their own.
It's just not there.

There are so many examples across all the art forms to support this Ansel Adams in photography, Picasso, Degas, Gershwim, Mozart, Beatles, and whoever else that is great in their respective art form. Of course there are many others than just the greats that also write good tunes or nice paintings, but they too have the basic creative way of looking at the world.

Think about a lyric/melody line from one of your favorite tunes. I have often myself thought how very cool/creative to put it that way, or make the paralell to get the point across.

Anyway, that's just my opinion about it.
Terry
 
Agtronic said:
I've been a guitarist for as long as I know, and I'm pretty much at a professional level at this point.

But one thing I have never thought about or even cared about is songwriting. I don't mean just lyrics, but musically too. I'm 24, have been playing guitar for probably 15-16 years, and I have not written one single song or melody or anything that is my own. This is why I will never make money with my playing, 'cause I don't have my own material.

Do you guys think that if I've been playing for so long and have not written anything that it simply isn't in me? Is it something you have to just have? I've met many musicians in my life, and even the really bad ones who have no physical skill on their instruments still had something to show that they had written, and most of the time it was impressive to a certain degree.

I have been trying to come-up with catchy melodies or chord progressions and it just doesn't come out from me. Everything sounds so fake and soul-less.

Anyone have an opinion on this? I'd appreciate any input, and don't hold back, let me have it, just watch the hair. ;)
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try psychedelic drugs :)
 
All my songs are emulation really. I hear things and want to write something with the same vibe. I find it easier to project myself into a situation that write about real experiences. On the odd occasion I have written a song about my own experience Ive never intended to do it. The song has kind of just 'fallen' out of me because it needed to be concieved. Now thats psycology and i dont touch that stuff! Those personal songs are not better or worse, just personal and at the end of the day the listener can't tell the difference.
 
I got this great book that I think everybody could learn from. If you don't know anything or if you think you know everything, this would still be a fun book if you are into guitar and songwriting. I wasnt even thinking about songwriting until I picked up this book its called:

How to Write Songs on guitar
A guitar-playing and songwriting course

By Rikky Rooksby

Published by Balafon

Its way cool and way fun. It even includes chords and scales and stuff.

hope it helps someone.
 
I also think (I know!) songwriting is something that you can improve over time with practice. I used to write in my 20s and people seemed to like what I did then. In my 30s I gave up music and never touched a guitar. In my 40s I came back to it and started to write again. When I look back at my first efforts i find them embarassing. Fortunately, I had the self knowledge to recognise they were poor and didn't 'release' them on the world.

My more recent efforts are (IMO) better. So, what's the main difference? In a word LYRICS!

Tunes, I've never had a problem with. But my original words (18 months/2 years ago) were very corny 'Moon in June' style crap. But gradualy I learned about writing words which sound 'real', conversational, and not contrived or forced. This is something you can learn. It's important to have 'something to say' by this you decide on a theme for the lyric and not just write down any phrases or words which rhyme to fit a riff with a 'that'll do' attitude. I would bet most of your favourite songs will have good lyrics - don't neglect them.

On another point, I'm not sure if anyone can write GOOD songs. The analogy I'd use is that many artists can faithfully copy a painting by an old master, but ask them to come up with something original themselves and they can't do it.

I don't think there's any corelation between writing and being a virtuosso musician. I think it's possible to write songs without knowing ANY instrument, but people in that category usualy need a musician to bring the song to life and get it 'out of their head' onto tape.

I'd class myself as a 'poor' guitarist, I could never track anything by Satriani for example, but i know enough guitar and keyboard in order to get the songs out of my head and down onto tape. And with modern technology musicianship becomes less of an issue, let's face it you can 'cheat' now and produce some great sounding songs.

Luckily, i can sing reasonably well, which is probably more important than musicianship when it comes to song writing in my opinion. After all if you can sing you can always sing the words and melody to some musician who can interpret that for you.

Finaly, don't be worried about writing crap. You have to get through that stage in order to write the good stuff later. Just don't play the crap to your friends!! Later, play the crap back to yourself and remeber how bad your writing could be, how far ytou've progressed, and how NOT to write!

Good luck.
 
lotuscent said:
dude if you can rip satriani. you can write a song.
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... i dunno, joe satriani can't seem to write one.:)

sorry, i couldn't resist. honestly, although i personally don't enjoy satriani, i do respect what he does, and his obvious dedication to his craft.

i think at least the desire to write, is something you are born with, and, as others have said, you have to work at honing your songs over time. recording your ideas, and listening back to what's working and what needs work is a great tool. taking the time to really listen to other music that inspires you, and really get inside what makes it effective to you, is another tool that often gets overlooked.
good luck - jv
 
What? you gotta be kidding!

Dude I know how you feel about the whole fakeness deal....and everything sounds the same .......But I still write. Your biggest mistake in writing was atcually not writing at all. You see, when you wait like I did same as you and you get really good at an instrument you start to limit yourself because you learn so many songs that every thing you play will sound too much Like some thing else..... So I expanded, and now I play 12 instruments, lol!!
If you notice everything will sound alittle different on various instruments and when that is played out go back to guitar and make up your own alternate tuning and you will start to hear your own songs........When you get to that tuning(the one u create) use it only for writing your own stuff....... don't go hey that sounds like this or that, and if it starts to change rythm or throw a few liks in ,and that should help. Most people start out trying to learn other songs...... this is the worst thing to do!!! But by doing this you think you got something accomplished and you do it over and over!! so stop playing other music, and find your own!! Good luck!!
 
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