Can vacuum tubes go bad or age?

[killthepixelnow]

Hey there, just bought wrong tubes for my amp and I'm considering saving them for later (I'm planning in buying a head this year). I wonder if the tubes will remain usable and if there's no problem in storing them for long periods of time (more than a year); if so, what are the advices to avoid damage? Thanks a lot!

 

[Lt. Bob]

Unused, they'll usually last for decades.
That's why 40 year old tubes command large prices.
Just put them where they don't get knocked around.

 

[miroslav]

Put them in the fridge...next to the beer.

 

[killthepixelnow]

Put them in the fridge...next to the beer.

Thanks for the advice, I will store'em where nobody can dstroy'em.

 

[stevieb]

Put them in the fridge...next to the beer.

I was just thinking/wondering about that. I keep my batteries in the freezer, it retards the chemical reaction so they do, indeed, have a longer shelf life. But tubes, nothing is happening with them when they are not being driven- no burning of elements, no oxidation (the glass envelopes are sealed), so I wonder if keeping tubes in the freezer really does any good.

Of course, you can sell them for absurd, snake-oil prices after they have been frozen...
BLACK SABLE SED EL34

 

[miroslav]

I was only kidding about keeping them in the fridge!

Cold will do nothing to extend tube life. I have a couple of cases full of all kinds of tubes, almost all are individually boxed and are neatly packed by type inside a few boxes...they all just sit on a couple of shelves...at normal room temp, typical room climate.

About the only thing that can go "bad" with a tube over time is the loss of its vacuum, but well built tubes can hold up for 50 years, and because of the vacuum, the components inside don't really deteriorate.

Those Black Label SED EL34 tubes look pretty nice...a bit pricey, but there's even more expensive ones out there.
If you want a moderately priced EL34 that sounds real good...the JJ EL34L tubes are quite good.
I also have some of the original Svetlana SED tubes...they are also quite good. You can hit them with very high voltages and they won't crap out.
I also have vintage EL34 tubes...my favorite ones are some Philips 6CA7 tubes...absolutley the creamiest sounding EL34 tubes I ever used.

 

[stevieb]

I was only kidding about keeping them in the fridge! ...
Those Black Label SED EL34 tubes look pretty nice...a bit pricey...

A BIT??? I was only kidding about those tubes. No WAY would I ever buy or recommend that flim-flamery.

 

[miroslav]

What brand of tubes are you buying then, that you consider good quality and sound and at decent prices?

Look...some shit being sold at crazy prices IS just a lot of hype, but it doesn't mean anything that is priced higher is a scam.

I've purchased Gold Lion KT66 tubes, and they ain't cheap...but I have to say they are better than anything else current, and if you want to buy NOS KT66...step away from the wall, 'cuz your head will slam against it when you see some of the prices on those!!!

I can't really say anything about the Black Label SED tubes, other than that they look like they are good build and probably good QC.
The best way to gauge if their prices are reasonable is by how well they are selling and what other folks say.
If everyone raves about them...then they must be reasonably priced. If they are a scam...I doubt they would be selling at those prices.

Prices are relative to market demand...so if people are buying, then that's what they cost. I don't think everyone could be taken in if flimflammery was going on.
The Tube Depot marks their prices pretty fairly, IMO. They have a wide variety of tubes at all kinds of prices, and some of the brands I'm familiar with are priced pretty much at the going rate, so if that one brand (Black Label SED) is a lot more than others...there's probably a good reason.

 

[stevieb]

Whoa, there, Nelly! I just think the "freezing" tubes is horse shit/snake oil. The tubes themselves are probably good ones. I also don't think the upcharge is warranted- as a comparison, Dean Markley cyro freezes a line of strings, (Blue Steel,) but they don't cost much (if any) more than "warm" strings.

 

[Lt. Bob]

What brand of tubes are you buying then, that you consider good quality and sound and at decent prices?

Look...some shit being sold at crazy prices IS just a lot of hype, but it doesn't mean anything that is priced higher is a scam.

I've purchased Gold Lion KT66 tubes, and they ain't cheap...but I have to say they are better than anything else current, and if you want to buy NOS KT66...step away from the wall, 'cuz your head will slam against it when you see some of the prices on those!!!

I can't really say anything about the Black Label SED tubes, other than that they look like they are good build and probably good QC.
The best way to gauge if their prices are reasonable is by how well they are selling and what other folks say.
If everyone raves about them...then they must be reasonably priced. If they are a scam...I doubt they would be selling at those prices.

Prices are relative to market demand...so if people are buying, then that's what they cost. I don't think everyone could be taken in if flimflammery was going on.
The Tube Depot marks their prices pretty fairly, IMO. They have a wide variety of tubes at all kinds of prices, and some of the brands I'm familiar with are priced pretty much at the going rate, so if that one brand (Black Label SED) is a lot more than others...there's probably a good reason.

Although I hear differences in tubes, for the most part I've personally found the differences to not be worth the money NOS stuff costs. A year or so ago upstate sent me a bunch of NOS tubes to try in my Blues Junior. Yes they sounded different but not so much that I wanted any of them except for one long plate G.E. 12ax7 that really added a noticable amount of 'sparkle' to the amp which it really needed.
I also bought a few of the EL84's just because he was nice enough to let me try a bunch out and I can always use some of those.
But in years of changing tubes I've never founbd it to be the 'night and day' difference that some claim. I can simply tweak the tone controls to adjust for any tube differences.
But it's definitely not flim flammery ....... some people are obsessive about the tiniest change in tone. Personally I think they should expend some of that energy on their playing but whatever floats your boat.

 

[miroslav]

Whoa, there, Nelly! I just think the "freezing" tubes is horse shit/snake oil. The tubes themselves are probably good ones. I also don't think the upcharge is warranted- as a comparison, Dean Markley cyro freezes a line of strings, (Blue Steel,) but they don't cost much (if any) more than "warm" strings.

OK...I didn't get that from your original post.
The link you provided to the Black Label/Tube Depot page doesn't specifically mention anything about "freezing" or up-charges for that process...at least not in the blurb on the web page.
I'm not that convinced that freezing improves a tube...but looking at the Black Label SED tubes...the just seem to be built with better components/quality (forget the freezing part)...so on that alone, I could see a reason for the higher prices for folks willing to pay.
If I didn't have a good variety of EL34 tubes...I would give one pair a try just for the sake of education. If I didn't hear any quality difference from a cheaper brand...then I wouldn't buy them again.
Of course...there's more to it than just sound differences. Better quality builds will last longer and take a lot more power cycles than a cheap tube...even if they sound the same. So, in the long run, you could end up buying more of the cheaper tubes which ends up being a greater cost.

But yeah...the whole cryogenics thing doesn't really make me jump up and take notice...

 

[miroslav]

But it's definitely not flim flammery ....... some people are obsessive about the tiniest change in tone. Personally I think they should expend some of that energy on their playing but whatever floats your boat.

While I"m not obsessed about specific tubes...I do have a rather large stock pile.
Main reason...I have a bunch of amps that use tubes, and some of them take a variety of different tube types...so I figured it was a smart thing to stock up on some tubes for the long run.
I agree...not all NOS tubes are worth the money...and only some actually impart a noticeable improvement on the tone...but yeah, I certainly can hear enough of a tone difference with some tube swaps...and not so much with others.
It's a try-it-and-hear kind of thing.
While you can adjust for a lot of tone at the amp's controls...there are some things the tone controls can't mimic that a tube does...like the sag characteristics of certain tubes...or the "hardness" and "roundness" of the overall sound VS a more diffused vibe...etc....and some tubes really DO make those things more or less noticeable.

For me...it's like putting on a shirt...whatever mood I'm in.
I'll run with a given set of tubes in a particular amp for awhile...then I'll just go into my tube stash and put in a new combination just to change things up a little from time to time. I have a few specific tubes and tube combinations that are certainly my favorites....some of them are vintage tubes and some are current production.

 

[Lt. Bob]

While I"m not obsessed about specific tubes...I do have a rather large stock pile.
Main reason...I have a bunch of amps that use tubes, and some of them take a variety of different tube types...so I figured it was a smart thing to stock up on some tubes for the long run.
I agree...not all NOS tubes are worth the money...and only some actually impart a noticeable improvement on the tone...but yeah, I certainly can hear enough of a tone difference with some tube swaps...and not so much with others.
It's a try-it-and-hear kind of thing.
While you can adjust for a lot of tone at the amp's controls...there are some things the tone controls can't mimic that a tube does...like the sag characteristics of certain tubes...or the "hardness" and "roundness" of the overall sound VS a more diffused vibe...etc....and some tubes really DO make those things more or less noticeable.

For me...it's like putting on a shirt...whatever mood I'm in.
I'll run with a given set of tubes in a particular amp for awhile...then I'll just go into my tube stash and put in a new combination just to change things up a little from time to time. I have a few specific tubes and tube combinations that are certainly my favorites....some of them are vintage tubes and some are current production.

yeah .... like I said, I do hear the differences but I gig pretty much every night.

I have a stock of tubes but I don't care. Basically I'm gonna use a set of power tubes up in a year or two so I'll eventually get around to using them all.
Also .... when I'm not gigging ... the LAST thing I'm interested in is fooling around with my gear. I'm often under the gun to learn 20 or 30 songs in a week for the next 'hired gun' gig and between that and gigging my main amp is lucky if it even comes out of the truck!
What little interest I have in music after all of that is done, I try to devote to recording.
But I USED to mess with my gear all the time ........ it's just 42 years of 325 gigs a year (probably only 250 this last year) kinda alters your relationship with all this stuff.

 

[miroslav]

Man...you just underscored why I'm having a tough time convincing myslef to get back into doing live gigs!

 

[Lt. Bob]

Man...you just underscored why I'm having a tough time convincing myslef to get back into doing live gigs!

I hear ya' man.

But, believe it or not, I still love it! I still get excited about every gig, even the crappy ones. Dunno why but I'm grateful for it.
So many of my friends that do this have gotten to where they hate a lot of it and just trudge thru the night bored. I never have for some reason and one of the things guys hire me for is that I'm pumped up and enthusiastic which rubs off on them.
Hell, I'll often finish a gig and then go play with someone for fun for another 3 or 4 hours.
I used to think I loved music but now I realize it's more of an obsessive-compulsive disorder!

 

[miroslav]

That's good for you.

I've lost all desire to learn a bunch of covers (which is what 99.99% of all musician classifieds imply) just to be able to play out... ...and then there's that whole load in/load out thing that just doesn't appeal to me as much as it did when I was 20-something.

I would accept the load in/load out if I could find a bunch of guys who wanted to do something else besides the basic cover thing, though I would not mind doing some covers if we could make them interesting instead of just the "human jukebox" approach...
...but I can understand why most bands go for all-covers, because that's what gets them the most paying gigs and the fastest/easiest audience recognition.

 

[Lt. Bob]

That's good for you.

I've lost all desire to learn a bunch of covers (which is what 99.99% of all musician classifieds imply) just to be able to play out... ...and then there's that whole load in/load out thing that just doesn't appeal to me as much as it did when I was 20-something.

I would accept the load in/load out if I could find a bunch of guys who wanted to do something else besides the basic cover thing, though I would not mind doing some covers if we could make them interesting instead of just the "human jukebox" approach...
...but I can understand why most bands go for all-covers, because that's what gets them the most paying gigs and the fastest/easiest audience recognition.

well ...... I don't do the human jukebox thing ..... I play what I want. As far as 'learning' covers .... to me that simply means knowing how the song goes so I can select what I'm gonna play. Plus, the vast majority of stuff I learn means simply listening to it.
I virtually NEVER actually put an instrument in my hands to learn a song ... I'll just listen to it 5 or 6 times ...... that's it for me.

My experience is that people will respond to good playing and not complain or even notice that the song isn't exactly like the record.
Some will say this isn't true but I have a LOT of experience at this. My whole thing is improvisation and I'm gonna say that if people get antsy because you didn't play it exactly like the record .... it means that you're not playing good enough stuff.
I play what the people on the record wished they'd have played!

 

[miroslav]

My whole thing is improvisation and I'm gonna say that if people get antsy because you didn't play it exactly like the record .... it means that you're not playing good enough stuff.
I play what the people on the record wished they'd have played!

Yeah...that's what I prefer to be doing...but this area I'm in...it seems like every cover band uses the same damn set list!!!!
And...because most are doing it either for money or for kicks...they find it's easiest/simplest to just learn covers straight off the record (and because most already know them that way, since they seem to use the same set lists ).

There were a couple of band possibilities I checked out, who immediately got put off in our discussions when I mentioned my desire to NOT just do covers in that "off the record" fasion....

I'm still looking...because I really would like to play out again, even if it's just a couple of gigs per month. I'm not concerned about making money off it.

 

[Lt. Bob]

There were a couple of band possibilities I checked out, who immediately got put off in our discussions when I mentioned my desire to NOT just do covers in that "off the record" fasion....

yeah ...... I wouldn't like that sort of band for sure although if they paid me I'd be there.

One thing ...... I just don't do the rehearsal thing.
I'll do a dress rehearsal just so they'll be relaxed about me knowing what to play but basically I'm gonna know what I'm doing without rehearsal and I'm not into sitting around while guys learn their parts which they should have done before rehearsal.
It's conceivable that some band could come along that would excite me enough to want to rehearse but mostly I have no real need to do so so I don't do it unless it's paid rehearsals.
THEN I'm more than happy to join in!


Too bad about the bands in your area but keep looking .......... you'll find someone with similar wishes.

 

[stevieb]

I thought this thread was about tubes...