bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
By not specifying any of the less common variations you are specifying the default.
Can I use omni small diaphragm condenser mics for XY stereo far away pointing?
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
But there is no "default".
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
For you, maybe. But if two fairly experienced engineers from opposite sides of the planet both recognize a tendency to assume unspecified X/Y means 90° cardioids then there must be something to it. The differences in perspective here may be a matter of what areas of sound we've been involved with.
Outside of classical recording I would bet that 90% of X/Y use is 90° cardioid. In my experience, generally rock clubs and theaters and project studios, if you say X/Y without specifying it will be understood as 90° cardioids in essentially the same way that "American" is understood as a person from the USA, not anyone from the Americas. Is someone says their American you don't wonder if that means Peruvian or Canadian, do you?
rob aylestone
Moderator
It's a terminology thing. If you mention XLR inputs, everyone jumps to the conclusion we're talking microphone level, but that's just common usage, not any kind of standard.
When we talk microphones, it was common to refer to spaced pairs and coincident pairs, which were the two common techniques used by recordists, engineers and experimenters. Indeed, when we started calling them A/B and X/Y, the 90 degree angle was very common, and the 90 degrees matching the 90 degree separation of X and Y axis on a graph, or video display. X, Y and then Z, all had 90 degree angles at the coincident point. However, there has always been a bit of wiggle room on the horizontal angle, depending on the distance to the sources and the physical width of the sound source. The popular audio recorders have movable mics, but are still referred to as X/Y.
The discussion here is on differences between plainly X/Y techniques. If the X/Y term denotes the separation from a coincident point, then cardioid, super-cardioid, hyper cardioid and figure 8 are all pickup patterns that can be used in X/Y setups. Pick up pattern AND position are the choices, and if they attempt to inhabit the same space, then all these are X/Y. The crossed fig 8 is also X/Y, but Alan Blumlein's baby, named after him.
We're attempting to convince each other that something is this, another thing isn't, and then some things half-way might be.
Spaced is spaced, coincident is coincident - with the advantages and disadvantages of the technique. Then you decide the polar pattern. What you call it hardly matters if it's accurate. You cannot argue with the physics.If you tilt in two fig 8s, then clearly it's still X/Y, but no longer Blumlein, which is always linked to a 90 degree angle. John and I have disagreed on things in the past, with two opinions, but he is just being factual here, because it's a physics thing.
When we talk microphones, it was common to refer to spaced pairs and coincident pairs, which were the two common techniques used by recordists, engineers and experimenters. Indeed, when we started calling them A/B and X/Y, the 90 degree angle was very common, and the 90 degrees matching the 90 degree separation of X and Y axis on a graph, or video display. X, Y and then Z, all had 90 degree angles at the coincident point. However, there has always been a bit of wiggle room on the horizontal angle, depending on the distance to the sources and the physical width of the sound source. The popular audio recorders have movable mics, but are still referred to as X/Y.
The discussion here is on differences between plainly X/Y techniques. If the X/Y term denotes the separation from a coincident point, then cardioid, super-cardioid, hyper cardioid and figure 8 are all pickup patterns that can be used in X/Y setups. Pick up pattern AND position are the choices, and if they attempt to inhabit the same space, then all these are X/Y. The crossed fig 8 is also X/Y, but Alan Blumlein's baby, named after him.
We're attempting to convince each other that something is this, another thing isn't, and then some things half-way might be.
Spaced is spaced, coincident is coincident - with the advantages and disadvantages of the technique. Then you decide the polar pattern. What you call it hardly matters if it's accurate. You cannot argue with the physics.If you tilt in two fig 8s, then clearly it's still X/Y, but no longer Blumlein, which is always linked to a 90 degree angle. John and I have disagreed on things in the past, with two opinions, but he is just being factual here, because it's a physics thing.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
If someone told you to set up an X/Y pair and then left the room, what would you do? I'd set up a cardioid pair at 90°.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Yup...it's terminology (or semantics).
Is there an "official" default? Of course not.
If somebody says "I used an X/Y pair on that" without adding any more detail, do I assume he means SDCs at 90 degrees? Yup.
Of course there's an infinite number of variations--but generally if somebody uses one of those variations they will also say exactly what they used. I know I certainly do.
Is there an "official" default? Of course not.
If somebody says "I used an X/Y pair on that" without adding any more detail, do I assume he means SDCs at 90 degrees? Yup.
Of course there's an infinite number of variations--but generally if somebody uses one of those variations they will also say exactly what they used. I know I certainly do.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
Thanks - although if someone says XLR, I would not assume a mic. input because they are equally used for line input as well; though I probably would assume he meant a 3-pin XLR rather than the 4 or 5 pin variety.
I wouldn't - I would assess the situation and choose the correct pattern and angle for the job.
Nope - I wouldn't assume that at all.
It's funny, but this thread is the only place where I have seen it assumed that X/Y normally means cardioids at 90˚ - I have never in my life assumed this at all, especially where hyper-cardioids are alo excellent as an X/Y pair.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Thanks - although if someone says XLR, I would not assume a mic. input because they are equally used for line input as well; though I probably would assume he meant a 3-pin XLR rather than the 4 or 5 pin variety.
XLR is not equally used for line unless you eliminate all entry level and low to mid grade pro gear. There are probably lots of people on this forum who have never seen an XLR line connection and don't even know they exist.
The implication, which I thought was obvious, was that one is merely setting up gear for a lead engineer or producer with the authority to decide how it's to be done. In that case with only "X/Y" specified, would you actually take it on yourself to set up a Blumlein?
You're in a small minority.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
If we can have this much fun debating X/Y miking, think what we could do with a Decca tree! 
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
I only use XLR for line inputs - phono is consumer and jack is for cheap semi-pro.
No, but I would certainly *not* assume cardioids at 90˚
Really? Nobody I know assumes 90˚ cardioids when X/Y is mentioned.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
You're an audio engineering 1%-er, as unaware of the real world of everyday audio engineering as the economic 1%-ers are of everyday economic challenges real working people face. To most of us working in rock clubs, small studios or recording at home your preconceptions are irrelevant, even elitist. I don't say this to offend, only to inform.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
Not at all - I am very aware of the real world and I'm certainly not "elitist".
From the very beginning, using a stereo tape recorder at home, I was researching microphones, polar-patterns and different mic. techniques.
In another forum someone was asking about using Beyer M201 as an X/Y co-incident pair. They are certainly well capable of this, but are certainly *not* cardioids - and he certainly didn't assume that X/Y only meant cardioids at 90˚.
I am just worried at your very narrow attitude that X/Y equals only cardioids at 90˚ when it clearly doesn't.
Those preconceptions (that X/Y equals only cardioids at 90˚) are narrow-minded and closes your mind to all the possibilities that microphone positioning can make possible when you keep an open mind.
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bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Whatever.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Whatever indeed.
John, nobody has said:
A more accurate characterisation would be "the most common configuration for X/Y is cardioids at 90˚ so if somebody just says X/Y without further details, it's normal to assume that's what they mean".
...and my first tape recorder (actually my dad's but when he got bored I stole it) was mono. I was well into my teens before I played with new fangled stereo stuff!
John, nobody has said:
A more accurate characterisation would be "the most common configuration for X/Y is cardioids at 90˚ so if somebody just says X/Y without further details, it's normal to assume that's what they mean".
...and my first tape recorder (actually my dad's but when he got bored I stole it) was mono. I was well into my teens before I played with new fangled stereo stuff!
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Pheeeuw!
I would say "XY" =90dgr SDCs to most people with a smattering of recording knowledge (and I include myself in that group in THIS company!)
Someone over at SoS much prefers 90dgr'ish ribbon fig 8s but then he has Coles 4038s AND the pre amps to suit! Most here do not.
And yes, it is daft and insular HERE to claim XLRs are common for line ins and outs and I would aver they will be seen less and less on "pro" gear as modern SM techniques allow more compact gear and vastly more tracks. You can obviously pack more jacks into a given space than XLRs.
Or! Perhaps John you would rather we all still used the ORIGINAL monster Cannons?
Dave.
I would say "XY" =90dgr SDCs to most people with a smattering of recording knowledge (and I include myself in that group in THIS company!)
Someone over at SoS much prefers 90dgr'ish ribbon fig 8s but then he has Coles 4038s AND the pre amps to suit! Most here do not.
And yes, it is daft and insular HERE to claim XLRs are common for line ins and outs and I would aver they will be seen less and less on "pro" gear as modern SM techniques allow more compact gear and vastly more tracks. You can obviously pack more jacks into a given space than XLRs.
Or! Perhaps John you would rather we all still used the ORIGINAL monster Cannons?
Dave.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Just to mention, a few months back I found a really neat bracket for X/Y work...articulated several ways so I can use a variety of different mics at a variety of different angles.
I wish I'd had it back when I was doing lots of chorus/choir type stuff!
And a lot of gear used in TV land has only XLR connections whether used for mics or line. I'm pretty sure the logic for this is that the XLR is a locking connector and anything you can do to avoid a plug being dislodged when you pull a VTR out on it's rack sliders is considered a good thing.
Heck, as mentioned elsewhere, my current mixer (which gets a lot of audio post use) has only XLRs for analogue connections.
Silliest I've seen was a Soundcraft radio studio mixer with no conventional connections at all. Everything was on a series of D-subs and you had to do a ton of soldering to make the initial connections. I wish I could say I thought to make a a bunch of D-sub to XLR fans from the first but that only came after the first couple of changes. I was having a bad day that time.
I wish I'd had it back when I was doing lots of chorus/choir type stuff!
And a lot of gear used in TV land has only XLR connections whether used for mics or line. I'm pretty sure the logic for this is that the XLR is a locking connector and anything you can do to avoid a plug being dislodged when you pull a VTR out on it's rack sliders is considered a good thing.
Heck, as mentioned elsewhere, my current mixer (which gets a lot of audio post use) has only XLRs for analogue connections.
Silliest I've seen was a Soundcraft radio studio mixer with no conventional connections at all. Everything was on a series of D-subs and you had to do a ton of soldering to make the initial connections. I wish I could say I thought to make a a bunch of D-sub to XLR fans from the first but that only came after the first couple of changes. I was having a bad day that time.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Yep, XLRs are superior for the most part. They don't short signal to ground when inserted or removed.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Yes, agreed, XLRs are mechanically superior but the shorting point is a bit of a non-event? We should not scare the noobs. A jack OUTPUT will not be shorted. A jack INPUTwill potentially short a signal feed but only if the devices already share a common earth, thus an output from a "floating" AI powered from a laptop on battery or isolated mains will only "find" an earth when the jack pug is fully home.
In any even, since the days of the 741, opamps can stand a shorted output indefinitely (and there is normally at least 47R in the line) Discrete electronics must also be so protected or the makers have no business being in the game!
One useful thing about jacks is the contacts they often provide for other functions. I have always been surprised that no one has done the same for the XLR?
Dave.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Unless it's on your stage wedge and someone kicks it out, then your amp's output gets shorted briefly, and again when someone sticks it back in without letting me switch off the amp. Speakon is of course the solution to that, but not everything has them.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Yeah. Lots of other functions...
I've also (admittedly rarely) seen problems when XLR and TRS are mixed up and phantom power is involved. I'd love to put it down to amateurs but I did it to myself once mixing up an studio mixer and a small ENG field mixer.
...as for XLR uses, don't forget that 3 pin is only one variant. For example, a lot of pro video gear used 4 pin XLRs as the power connector for 12 volt DC. There was even a dreaded XLR-size connector (with extra shrouding on the pins for insulation) used for mains. ITN (ecc83 will know who they are) used them for all tech mains when I joined in 1976. Horrible to wire and the extra shrouding kept pushing back into the connector making them dangerous.