Can I Get Rid of My Closet?

[hookiefree]

I'm moving my setup to a couple bedrooms on the 1st floor. The control room has a closet that extends into the space that I want to get rid of. How can I find out it is load bearing or not? I want to do the work myself but I don't want to just whack it down and have the house come with it.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I highly doubt if the 2 walls that define the closet are load bearing. The wall that seperates the two rooms MAY be. People do strange things when building and NEVER underestimate what exists when it comes to structural elements. People add on room additions with no permits sometimes. Which can mean anything goes. I once lived in a house that built from an Air Force base packing crates. Didn't know it till I added on a room. HOLY SHIT! Some of the rafters and joists were scabbed together from 2 or more pieces of lumber. Some were 1x4 on edge and didn't even span the whole distance. Unbelievable. Had to tear the whole roof off.

When you say this is on the first floor, I assume this is more than a one story building, correct? If so it is probably difficult to check the ceiling/2nd floor joists direction, connection and termination points. First thing to find out though is the joist direction. Maybe cut a small hole in the ceiling within the closet itself. Once that is known then you probably can tell whether or not these joists are actually supported by the joist ends. Most likely, they are not, but don't take my word on that. In the afore mentioned house, one closet had short twoxfour joists added on with the closet wall supporting the room joists. I would have had to redo the whole ceiling just to tear out the closet.

fitZ

 

[hookiefree]

Thanks for responding Rick. My house is weird as you can see in the pics. There is a crawl space above the room. So you're saying that the direction of the joists will tell me if I can get rid of the closet or not? I don't know much about construction but damnit it's time I learned.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Hookiefree, ok I looked. Thanks for the pic. This is the norm. A gabled roof, with rafters forming the gable or pitch of the roof. The rafters are usually 2x6 or 2x8, or 2x10's or even 2 x12's, and usually 16" or 24" on center. The run from the walls at the lowest point, to the ridge at the highest. If this is a newer home, these could be trusses instead, which look similar, but perform thier job in a similar but different manner.
The joists AND rafters run the same direction. The joists have a two fold purpose. The rafters are above the joists, and support the roof load, which is the shingles and shiething. When you apply a load to the roof, such as the shingles etc, since the rafters are pitched upward at the middle, means that they want to push out the walls on the support end. The joists first purpose, is to tie the walls together SO the rafters won't push them outward. Understand? Hence, in this case, that means the joists SHOULD run perpendicular to the length of your closet. In otherwords, the joists SHOULD span the whole distance from your control room exterior wall to the tracking room exterior wall. The key word here however is SHOULD. It could be that these joists, because of the total span requirements, might be supported by the wall that seperates your tracking room from the control room, and may be made up of two lengths of timber per joist, but only visual inspection will tell you the facts.


In fact, it could turn out these joists and rafters are indeed trusses, which would imply that demo of the closet should be ok. But my guess is the joists, even if they are one piece or not, are supported by this partition wall. In fact, I bet there are interior braces from the rafters, back to the joists at this wall. But, who knows. If I were you, I would crawl up there and LOOK. That should explain everything. Let us know.

BTW, gut feeling and experience says YES YOU CAN TEAR IT OUT BUT DON"T BE AN IDIOT AND DO IT WITHOUT LOOKING AND THINKING... WHAT IS GOING TO FALL AND WHY BEFORE DOING SO!!!
fitZ

 

[Jeff_D]

Another thing to keep in mind; a bedroom without a closet cannot be considered a "bedroom" for resale purposes (at least not around here according to my realator). If you plan on staying there for a while i wouldnt worry about it. But if you plan to sell in the next few years it may be an issue. Just a thought- other than that- based on your sketch, i cant imagine you'd have alot of structural problems to consider.

 

[hookiefree]

Another thing to keep in mind; a bedroom without a closet cannot be considered a "bedroom" for resale purposes (at least not around here according to my realator). If you plan on staying there for a while i wouldnt worry about it. But if you plan to sell in the next few years it may be an issue. Just a thought- other than that- based on your sketch, i cant imagine you'd have alot of structural problems to consider.

So what will it be if install sliding patio doors between the 2 rooms?? I don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon. I think I can handle building another closet though if I do. I'd really rather do all this in the garage but:

1. I only record vox and the occassional guitar so I don't need that much space.

2. It would cost waaay too much to get HVAC and plumbing installed and my prices are dirt cheap.

If I work with what I have in the house I'd make my money back in no time and be able to pay for a lot of new toys too.

 

[Jeff_D]

So what will it be if install sliding patio doors between the 2 rooms?? I don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon. I think I can handle building another closet though if I do. I'd really rather do all this in the garage but:

1. I only record vox and the occassional guitar so I don't need that much space.

2. It would cost waaay too much to get HVAC and plumbing installed and my prices are dirt cheap.

If I work with what I have in the house I'd make my money back in no time and be able to pay for a lot of new toys too.

heh- I dont know what it would be called, but if your not going to be moving anytime soon i wouldnt worry about it. My only point was that if you intend to sell it could mean the difference between selling 4 br house or a 2 br house.
IF you left it as is, you could make a vocal booth out of the closet, then put a door between the 2 rooms sould be glass- like a single french door or something- Im just throwing out ideas here. That would actually be the cheapest I'm guessing.

 

[hookiefree]

heh- I dont know what it would be called, but if your not going to be moving anytime soon i wouldnt worry about it. My only point was that if you intend to sell it could mean the difference between selling 4 br house or a 2 br house.
IF you left it as is, you could make a vocal booth out of the closet, then put a door between the 2 rooms sould be glass- like a single french door or something- Im just throwing out ideas here. That would actually be the cheapest I'm guessing.

I know what you meant. I took it into account and am willing to go for it.

I have another question though. I planned to just build another floated room inside the tracking room but that would be 3 leaves which is bad right? The exterior wall, the interior wall plus the new wall. That wouldn't work would it? I'd have to get rid of the interior wall first wouldn't I? That kinda changes things.

 

[hookiefree]

Anyone have any input?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Anyone have any input?

Hello again. Hookiefree, I think you need to read some stuff. Floating a room is a BIG task. Expensive and detail oriented. You'll loose at LEAST a foot of height, and you will have to step up into it. That means offset doors. Not to mention a 1000 other details. No, you don't have to tear out that wall between rooms either. Thats what tells me you don't have a clue of what this is really about nor how it is done.
First things first. What is the existing floor made of? Second, you COULD use RC in the tracking room instead of floating a room. In fact, go here and read every thing you can. I think you will begin to understand what the implications are. To "truely" float a room, you have no idea what it really takes. The first link should give you a clue. If you need more convincing, go to the second and read ALL the stickys. No time for more. Later.
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=107
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=f8f186822f24bb012e5d73978154c7ca
fitZ

 

[mshilarious]

Keep in mind that the wall between the rooms is likely a bearing wall. You can put a door in that wall, but you will have to replace that section of the wall with an appropriately sized beam.

If you don't have experience poking holes in bearing walls you really should hire a carpenter to do that work. I would definitely get a permit because you'll want to show that a modification to a bearing wall was up to code.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I would definitely get a permit because you'll want to show that a modification to a bearing wall was up to code.

If you build a floating room, the bearing wall will be the least of your permit problems But mshilarious is right. But I still suggest you get up in the attic and LOOK at what that wall is supporting and how. Not only that, but let me suggest one other thing. If this FLOOR is a wood membrane floor(not concrete slab), I would seriously forget the floating room.
fitZ

 

[hookiefree]

Not only that, but let me suggest one other thing. If this FLOOR is a wood membrane floor(not concrete slab), I would seriously forget the floating room.
fitZ

Forgotten.

I'm just going to build a small box in the room for vocals. No ventalation. Just a plug in lamp, mic and headphones. If they want to breathe they just have to wait.

If I seal and board up the room windows then build a floated box inside the room made from an outer layer of plywood and an inner layer of drywall with rockwool in between the layers and lining the interior walls to kill the reverb, do you guys think I'll get a decent amount of isolation? Should I consider other materials?

 

[mshilarious]

Forgotten.

I'm just going to build a small box in the room for vocals. No ventalation. Just a plug in lamp, mic and headphones. If they want to breathe they just have to wait.

If I seal and board up the room windows then build a floated box inside the room made from an outer layer of plywood and an inner layer of drywall with rockwool in between the layers and lining the interior walls to kill the reverb, do you guys think I'll get a decent amount of isolation? Should I consider other materials?

Isolation from what, the other room? Why not extend the closet to the full length of the tracking room, using standard soundproof construction? That will give you decent isolation (replace the room doors too) without major construction. You'll still get some transmission, but for vox and guitar you don't need tons of isolation.

Best of all, when you're done these will still look like normal bedrooms.

I would definitely NOT board up windows, those are mandatory egress for bedrooms. Heavy curtains will knock down high frequency reflections, and windows aren't that big anyway. Walls are reflective too

So just treat the walls as necessary for absorption

 

[hookiefree]

Yes isolation from the control room and from the traffic outside. My box idea sounded pretty simple. Do you think it'll be hard to build Ms. H? I'm not even worried about what the rooms look like as long as I can make them look like bedrooms if and when I decide to move.