cab problem

[Jacko]

when ever i palm mute notes on my low e string i get a terrible amount of rumble that makes it sound very loose and frankly it sounds like crap. i dont have this problem when i play a chord, only when i play that single string palm muted. is there a way to fix it so it is not so noisy and annoying without lowing the bass on the eq?

 

[Dani Pace]

You might try lowering the bass side of your pickup(s) I had a similar problem and a simple pickup adjustment allowed me to get a muted sound without the ( what I called an amp fart) sort of rumble. Heavier bottom end strings might help too. Light guage strings don't require as much tension so they tend to "flutter" especially when muted.

 

[Jacko]

well i dont think it has to do with the strings because it does it for me with d'addirio 10s and ghs boomers (9s). last time my uncle was over he said something about my 10 inch speakers couldnt handle it and i needed 12s. i will probably do that but i want to get a hot plate or a power brake before i go and buy a new speaker cab, so i just wanted to know if there was anything i could do temporarly like putting a pillow in there or a blanked or something to reduce low end.

also i was thinking about this cab as a replacement? can anybody tell me if its any good? my cab right now is one of those cheap hartke 410s. so i want to know if that would be a good upgrade or do i need to spend 800 dollars on a marshall 1960 cab?

http://www.music123.com/Ashdown-Standard-412-i73068.music

 

[Farview]

Is it a Hartke bass cabinet?

Anyway, everythime I've had this problem it is the back of the cabinet coming loose. Tighten the screws that hold the back of the cabinet on.

I have also taken the back of the cabinet off, put foam weather stripping on every surface that touches the back panel, and screwed it back together.

If it is a bass cabinet, you might have smoked the speakers. Playing distorted guitars through speakers that weren't designed for it isn't such a hot idea.

 

[Jacko]

nope it was a guitar cab, this is what i got
http://samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemPos=3&TempID=4&STRID=163225&Method=3&CategoryID=134&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&DepartmentID=1&pagesize=10&SortMethod=3&SearchPhrase=&Contains=&Search_Type=SEARCH&GroupCode=

i opened up the cab to see if anything is lose, but nothing is. just a crappy cab that cant handle my amp i guess, do you have an opinion on that ashdown cab?

 

[easychair]

Playing distorted guitars through speakers that weren't designed for it isn't such a hot idea.

???

Speakers don't care what you put through them, as long as it isn't too much level.

 

[Farview]

nope it was a guitar cab, this is what i got
http://samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemPos=3&TempID=4&STRID=163225&Method=3&CategoryID=134&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&DepartmentID=1&pagesize=10&SortMethod=3&SearchPhrase=&Contains=&Search_Type=SEARCH&GroupCode=

i opened up the cab to see if anything is lose, but nothing is. just a crappy cab that cant handle my amp i guess, do you have an opinion on that ashdown cab?

I didn't say that there would be anything loose. The wood in the back plate is fatigued and is flapping against the rest of the cabinet. (Marshalls used to do this all the time, they had a center post that the back cover would flap against as the cabinet breathed)

It is possible that your speakers just can't handle it. You could also be pushing way too much low end to compensate for the 10 inch speakers.

 

[Farview]

???

Speakers don't care what you put through them, as long as it isn't too much level.

Distortion kills speakers a lot faster than power will. If they were not designed to handle distortion, they will fail prematurely.

 

[easychair]

Distortion kills speakers a lot faster than power will. If they were not designed to handle distortion, they will fail prematurely.

No offense, but that's not true. As long as the speaker's power ratings and frequency range are respected, the speaker doesn't care what goes through it.

 

[Farview]

No offense, but that's not true. As long as the speaker's power ratings and frequency range are respected, the speaker doesn't care what goes through it.

OK, go ahead, send a 50 watt square wave through a 50 watt speaker and see how long it takes to start on fire.

 

[seismetr0n]

if the blurb is true about the ashdown cabinets... they have 4 celestion vintage 30's, and at that price its cheaper then actually buying the speakers seperately.. of course theres that damn ashdown label on the front..

 

[easychair]

OK, go ahead, send a 50 watt square wave through a 50 watt speaker and see how long it takes to start on fire.

That is in no way respecting the power rating of the speaker, unless that is a peak burst. That same square wave, at a low enough level, won't hurt anything.

I know what you are saying, but there is a difference between handling distortion and distorting as part of the sound.

A guitar speaker may distort at lower power than a PA speaker of the same rating. Guitar speakers are sometimes used as part of the sound, as opposed to a PA speaker which is supposed to reproduce signals faithfully as much as possible. But if neither is distorting, just reproducing, neither is more capable or prone to failure than the other.

 

[Farview]

Right, but the man is running a guitar amp. Guitarists are used to beating up both the power section of the amp (assuming tube) and the speaker cabinets. A 100 watt tube head will put out much more than 100 watts at times (when palm muting, for example) and the speakers in the cabinets are supposed to distort as part of the sound. That is the way guitar rigs are set up. If you put something in the chain that was not designed (and therefore not rated accordingly) for that purpose, you will kill it. It's the same reason you wouldn't run a 100 watt marshall into a 100 watt floor wedge. Besides the fact that the tweeter would die almost instantly, the speaker wouldn't be able to disapate the heat.

In a strict, all things being equal discussion, you would be correct.

In a 'taking things that were never meant to work together' sense, the speakers will blow. I've seen it happen too many times. One of my clients insisted that he wanted 15's as well as 4x12 cabs. Until we got speakers that were designed for what he was doing, we were blowing up 400 watt EV's with a 300 watt amp that was feeding the 1x15 cab and a 4x12.

I also work with a bass player who is famous for his distorted bass sound, he too used to have cabinets start on fire from basicly running a Marshall (type) head into bass cabs.

I understand what you are saying and, in theory, you are right. But I've been the guy with the fire extinguisher too many times.

 

[easychair]

It's the same reason you wouldn't run a 100 watt marshall into a 100 watt floor wedge. Besides the fact that the tweeter would die almost instantly, the speaker wouldn't be able to disapate the heat..

Yes, like I said, too much power equals too much heat, or overexcursion. That would happen even if the amp was run clean and put out more than 100W, or if you used a 100W guitar cab. If you run within the speaker's power ratings, it won't blow.

In a 'taking things that were never meant to work together' sense, the speakers will blow. I've seen it happen too many times. One of my clients insisted that he wanted 15's as well as 4x12 cabs. Until we got speakers that were designed for what he was doing, we were blowing up 400 watt EV's with a 300 watt amp that was feeding the 1x15 cab and a 4x12.

I also work with a bass player who is famous for his distorted bass sound, he too used to have cabinets start on fire from basicly running a Marshall (type) head into bass cabs..

You are right about the "things that were never meant to work together" idea. But both of those are explained by too much power, not enough speaker, or things running outside of their frequency range, not the fact that people were running distorted signals through them. In that sense of power handling and frequency response, yes, those things weren't meant to work together. I'm not surprised both those guys had problems. They were probably overpowering their speakers by clipping their amps, and running inappropriate frequencies into their speakers.

The whole "distortion kills speakers" thing was the prevailing wisdom up until ten years ago or so, and is still pretty persistent today. I used to think it was the case myself.

 

[Farview]

Guitar players run thier power amps into clipping as a matter of course, that's why it is a bad idea to do this.
Guitar cabinets have taken all this into account. PA and bass gear does not.

The printed specs of a guitar speaker and a PA speaker could read the same, but the guitar speaker will be able to handle a clipping amp a lot better, that is it's job.

I'm not sure which part of this you aren't getting. I gave the advise assuming a guitar amp was being used. That changes the situation. Guitar amps are not used like, and do not behave like PA and (most) bass amps. This statement was made for this specific situation and is correct. Your assertion is correct for almost every other instance, but not this one.

 

[Jacko]

well i dont know if this really helps but my amp is a 120 watt peavey vtm, all tube, running into the hartke amp with 4 30 watt "celestion designed" speakers. even though on the back of the amp over the outlet cord it says 400 watts.

i had band practice today, and when i had the post gain on about 5 the low end thud went away but the amp sounded very bitey and high, not warm like it is at lower volumes.

could the fact that you said when i palm mute the amp goes over 120 watts have something to do with it? should i find something with 70 watt speakers?

 

[easychair]

Farview,

What you don't seem to be getting is this: Distortion doesn't hurt speakers. Power does. Speaker failures people used to attribute to distortion, were really due to overpowering, even with a too small amp. New information has come out that shows this. The idea that distortion kills speakers is a busted myth. It was the prevailing view for thirty years, it is not anymore, as someone finally did the research to find out what was really happening.

I won't debate that guitar speakers are made differently and sound different. But they don't "handle" a certain type of signal better than any other kind of speaker with the same specs, with regards to durability.

You can run a 10W amp clipped to the max into a 1000W speaker all day long, and it will never fail. Why? The amp just doesn't make enough power.
That fact alone should make you think. If somehow distortion magically hurts PA speakers, why doesn't the 1000W speaker die? Because speaker failure is related to power. That is true for all speakers.

Guitar players run thier power amps into clipping as a matter of course, that's why it is a bad idea to do this.
Guitar cabinets have taken all this into account. PA and bass gear does not..

Most PA guys run their amps into clipping as well. I'd say more people clip their PA amps than clip their guitar amps, actually, since most people never run their guitar amps flat out, but will flog their PA amps and speakers without mercy, as modern limiters sound better and better, people can clip their stuff all day long and not care, cause it doesn't sound bad. Go to any club and look at the amp racks. Most people are like DJs, they only think it sounds good when everything is in the red.

Clipping is basically compression. It reduces dynamic range, and raises average level. In an amp, this means average power level is raised.

PA speakers only seem more susceptible, as guitars are very dynamic. Even a severely clipped guitar amp will be putting out that clipped signal for a very short time on average, giving the speaker more time to recover and shed heat. The average level is pretty low as opposed to severely clipped full program music, which may only have a few db dynamic range over time.

The printed specs of a guitar speaker and a PA speaker could read the same, but the guitar speaker will be able to handle a clipping amp a lot better, that is it's job.
.

I'd like to see any speaker manufacturer make that claim and back it up, if both specs conform to AES standards.

Like I said, amp clipping is basically compression. Compression raises the average power level. A speaker's ability to handle amp clipping is only limited by how much power it can handle and dissipate.

A severely clipped amp has a raised power level. If the speaker can handle it, it won't blow. If it can't it will fry.

 

[Farview]

I won't debate that guitar speakers are made differently and sound different. But they don't "handle" a certain type of signal better than any other kind of speaker with the same specs, with regards to durability.

They are spec'd differently, that is the problem for someone who doesn't know this. This is the same reason that a 100 watt tube guitar amp will be louder than a 100 watt solid state guitar amp. The printed specs on the two
are not analogus to each other, your comparing apples and oranges.

You can run a 10W amp clipped to the max into a 1000W speaker all day long, and it will never fail. Why? The amp just doesn't make enough power.
That fact alone should make you think. If somehow distortion magically hurts PA speakers, why doesn't the 1000W speaker die? Because speaker failure is related to power. That is true for all speakers.

Yes, but this is not the situation that this poor man is in.

I'd like to see any speaker manufacturer make that claim and back it up, if both specs conform to AES standards.

If everything were spec'd to the same standard, this wouldn't be an issue. Everything isn't, so it is.

Now that we have gone and argued all this, I'm sure we have accomplished nothing but to confuse our man with the question.

The bottom line is, if you plug a 120 watt guitar head into a cabinet that is supposed to handle 120 watts of clean power, you will roach the speakers. If you plug it into a cabinet with 120 watts of celestions (like he has), the speakers will be fine.

4x10 guitar cabinets are not known for their low end, if you are trying to get a modern, detuned sound, that cabinet won't do it. I'm not sure that VTM is going to do it either. I really like those amps, but if you aren't going for a Marshally sort of sound, this ain't the amp for you.

 

[punkin]

Avatar (http://www.avatarspeakers.com/) makes some nicely priced and outfitted cabs. You can't build them and fill them with Celestions as cheap as they sell them outright.

 

[Outlaws]

*Yawn*


From what I got out of the first post, it sounds like the poster just isn't used to the sound of 4 12" speakers. I can get nice sounds that when I strike my notes just right, I can shake shit off shelves. Maybe I am just good at goosing everything out of my guitar, but 4 12's have a lot of power.


Jacko,
Have you ever used this setup in a band setting? I am sure you wouldn't notice too much bass once a bass player gets next to you.

412 cabs are not for the bedroom. Sorry, there just isn't a way to say it anybetter than that. I have one, but I crank the shit out of it and yes, I get low woofy frequencies when I palm mute...especially on a palm muted G on the low E string. That seems lower than the normal woof I can get too.