C4 vs. MXL603 (for acoustic guitar)

[alanhyatt]

sdelsolray,

I am back in the office on Thursday. Our guitars were different. Two Martin D-28's, one 1969, and one brand new one, as well as a Taylor six string.

We did mostly a funk groove, no fingerpicking. In fact some of the mics picked up to much of the pick noise, but no EQ. We used a Toft ATC-2, an older Joemeek VC1Q, and the new yet unreleased Joemeek twinQ as pres.

I will ask Brent to set up the room differently and we will record some other material to see if we can push more of what you found. We can make some MP3's of what we did as it is still on the hard drive, even though I hate MP3's, maybe you can do the same and we can exchange them between us so you can hear what we did, and vice versa.

We can decide later if we want to put a link to them later. Lets stay in touch for more results on this on and see where it goes. I have a Protools Core System 192, with pretty much tons of plug ins. So, give me a couple of days to get back to the office.....

 

[krimson]

Hey Alan,

I talked to Justin yesterday about getting the better C4 shock mounts, and he has sent them right away as well as emailed me the tracking number. You guys are awsome! I wish all companies had just as good and speedy cusomer service as you guys do!

I figure I would share this info with everyone in this mean 10 page fuckfest just to make things brighter, well at least for you man!

Thank you,
Jeff

 

[ausrock]

It would be interesting to hear similar comparisons done on less stellar recording rigs. If I had C4's I would offer to contribute something run through my S/craft --> Fostex H/disk system with no EQ'ing or enhancements.

 

[CanopuS]

I've used the C4's through a DMP3 ---> Lexicon Omega if you care.

However:

a) I'm not pro
b) I wouldn't be able to get the best out of any mics
c) I already posted the clips a while ago but no one seemed very interested

 

[Brent Casey]

I've used the C4's a time or two and have a good idea how they work. Also, I have a consecutive pair of Schoeps CMC6 bodies and a consecutive pair of CMC41 capsules. I do not have the MK4 heads, because:
*I'm married (ma waff)
*Am restoring a house (ma howse)
*Have a young son (ma keeyid)
The wife did take pity on me a couple of years ago however and bought me a real nice Martin D-28 for my birthday. Woohoo!
So I've had a bit of time to become accustomed to the sound of all the aforementioned gear and can make a pretty good determination about what's happening throughout the signal chain.
I also know a bit about mic placement and acoustics, without which I would have no clue whatsoever. Readers take heed. I read a lot on this stuff too. Most of my books are used and come from Bookfinder.com. A great resource to those interested.
Sorry for the digression, here we go:
First of all my Schoeps are those most detailed mics I own. Great mics. I love this company. I also own a 221B tube mic, but alas, its nickel diaphragm gave up the ghost last year and Tony at SP Audio doesn't have the time to replace it in the near future - but again, that's another story entirely. I may have to give it a shot at some point (jaw clenched). It was a very detailed mic as well, but nothing like the CMC641's.
The C4's I use all the time. They are detailed and fairly accurate in my opinion. I also find their off-axis response very pleasing. When we were recording here at the massive subterranean PMI command center recently, we had a bunch of mics set up across a boom which we placed individually for each track according to where I thought the mic sounded best on the instrument. Wheeling the boom back and forth is like turning knobs on an eq. Frequencies resonate forth from a given instrument in such a way that the mic must be in the right place in order to capture the proper blend of given frequencies in just the right amount. This also depends on the mic. Since it is by nature a filter, with its own resonance and inherent behaviors - both acoustically and electrically, it must be placed so as any emphasis or de-emphasis of particular frequencies are not overtly and or detrimentally altering the source material. This is Schoep's shtick. Try saying that out loud even once. They build mics that are for the most part, unobtrusive. What Alan is describing (I think) was the fact that we had five mics being recorded and of those five, there were two that were able to translate a D-28 in quite a decent manner. Of those two, the Schoeps was definitely the most detailed and accurate. Almost to a fault. As for your description of your Schoeps being "sensual" sdelsolray, I'll go with that, I guess. Perhaps it depends on the source material. What we were tracking was not sensual by any meaning of the word. "Musical" I can understand. In our listening though, the C4 and Schoeps stood out in stark contrast to their Shanghai brethren and are on their own, great sounding mics.
Thanks for giving the C4's a try and for the feedback. What was your take on the omnis? Also, what is your opinion of the MK4's on nylon string?

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Well, Brent, we seem to agree (you just took a lot more space than I did to say it).

Sometimes, you just gotta spend the bucks.

Nice to know my ears aren't completely shot. The borrowed Schoeps CMC6/CMC41 I heard gave me the same impression; it was the best acoustic guitar mic I ever heard.

 

[MISTERQCUE]

This thread has finally taken a turn for the better!
Thankyou everyone!

 

[Flatpicker]

Thanks again for the insight, Brent. I'm sure glad you're hanging out here!

...I also know a bit about mic placement and acoustics, without which I would have no clue whatsoever. Readers take heed. I read a lot on this stuff too. Most of my books are used and come from Bookfinder.com. A great resource to those interested...

Which books? I need this wisdom too, for much of the time I wonder if I even have a clue...

 

[Brent Casey]

Which books? I need this wisdom too, for much of the time I wonder if I even have a clue...

Tim, you probably have a pretty decent shelf of EE books (TAOE, etc.), don't you?

For acoustics, I rely on:

The Master Handbook of Acoustics 2nd ed. Kinsler, Frey
Fundamentals of Acoustics F. Alton Everest
Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics Benade
Music Physics and Engineering Harry Olson
Audio Cyclopedia(s) Tremaine, Ballou

For universal navigation, I recommend Tom Robbins.

Any further recommendations welcome. I am always interested.

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

 

[Marik]

Tim, you probably have a pretty decent shelf of EE books (TAOE, etc.), don't you?

For acoustics, I rely on:

The Master Handbook of Acoustics 2nd ed. Kinsler, Frey
Fundamentals of Acoustics F. Alton Everest
Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics Benade
Music Physics and Engineering Harry Olson
Audio Cyclopedia(s) Tremaine, Ballou

For universal navigation, I recommend Tom Robbins.

Any further recommendations welcome. I am always interested.

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

Thanks Brent,

In addition to some of yours, here is the list of my constant use and reference. Without some of them I simply cannot live:

"The Microphone Book" by John Eargle
"Microphone Engineering Handbook" by Gayford
"Electroacoustics" by M Gayford
"Microphones" by Robertson
"Microphones" BBC training manual
"Handbook for Sound Engineers--The New Audio Cyclopedia" editor Ballou
"RCA Microphones" by Olsen
"Microphone manual. Design and Application" by Huber
"Audio Engineer's Reference Book" editor Talbot-Smith

 

[NL5]

Wow.......

 

[Brent Casey]

Thanks Brent,

In addition to some of yours, here is the list of my constant use and reference. Without some of them I simply cannot live:

"The Microphone Book" by John Eargle
"Microphone Engineering Handbook" by Gayford
"Electroacoustics" by M Gayford
"Microphones" by Robertson
"Microphones" BBC training manual
"Handbook for Sound Engineers--The New Audio Cyclopedia" editor Ballou
"RCA Microphones" by Olsen
"Microphone manual. Design and Application" by Huber
"Audio Engineer's Reference Book" editor Talbot-Smith

Thanks Marik,

I believe congratulations are in order.

"Electroacoustics" and the BBC manual are new ones on me. I will have to seek those out.
Some other titles that may be of interest:
"Stereo Microphone Techniques" Bartlett
"Troubleshooting analog circuits" Pease
"Radio Designers Handbook" Edited by F. Langford Smith
"Basic Theory and Application of Electron Tubes" Department of the Army
"Electromechanical Transducers and Wave Filters" Mason
"Manual of Active Filter Design" Hilburn and Johnson
"Transistor Circuit Analysis" Gronner

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

 

[Flatpicker]

Thanks Brent and Marik! Looks like I have a few books to buy.

Brent,
My EE book shelf could always use some help. What's your favs?

 

[Brent Casey]

Thanks Brent and Marik! Looks like I have a few books to buy.

Brent,
My EE book shelf could always use some help. What's your favs?

I dig that army/air force manual on tubes.
"The Art Of Electronics", of course
A good one for bedrock electronics reference is "The Handbook For Electronics Engineering Technicians" by Kaufmann & Seidman
"Operational Amplifiers - Design and Applications" Burr Brown
"Electronic Circuits" Angelo
"How to Design and Build Audio Amplifiers Including Digital Circuits - 2nd Ed." Horowitz
"Audio Measurement Handbook" Metzler
"Basic Electronics" McWhorter & Evans - this is one of those Radio Shack books that pretty much starts at "What is electricity?" and goes from there.
I have many more than this including more specific books, such as Motorola's "Zener Diode Handbook", etc.
Hope this helps.

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

 

[Flatpicker]

Thanks Brent, I’ll look for these.

Most of what I have can be reduced down to a book full math equations. Not that I don’t need to learn the math, but good grief! Seems like books about specific applications I’m interested in are difficult to come by.

 

[crazydoc]

As long as this thread's off track, here's my collection of electronic literature. They're almost all 20+ years old, but still hold useful information. The ones I used the most were the Allied Electronics Industrial Catalog - 1972, to get semiconductor specs out of, and National Semiconductor's Linear Data Book - 1976. Ahh, what a great read. Walt Jung's IC OP Amp Cookbook is right up there with the best of them too.

Now if I only knew 0.1% of what was in them, I'd be a fucking genius.

 

[Voxy Lady]

THE mic

I've never heard the C4's so I can't comment on that. I HAVE heard the Schoeps CMC6/MK41, which I think is one of the finest acoustic guitar mics in the world. The only mic I've heard that comes close to it in any way was the T.H.E. combo, but even that doesn't "beat" the Schoeps CMC6/MK41 - just pretty close, at $700 each.

where can i find morei nfo on T.H.E. mics ?

 

[still4given]

I've never heard the C4's so I can't comment on that. I HAVE heard the Schoeps CMC6/MK41, which I think is one of the finest acoustic guitar mics in the world. The only mic I've heard that comes close to it in any way was the T.H.E. combo, but even that doesn't "beat" the Schoeps CMC6/MK41 - just pretty close, at $700 each.

where can i find morei nfo on T.H.E. mics ?

http://www.audiomedia.com/archive/r...2-the-microphones/us-0102-the-microphones.htm

http://www.theaudio.com/

http://www.mercenary.com/theaudio.html

 

[Voxy Lady]

thanx for the linx

 

[capnreverb]

Could not have said it better myself.The thing that bothers me the most
about the mic forum are the nobodies with elitist attitudes.
Back to the thread:I cant speak for the other,but as a novice, the MXL 603's work very well for me.I am sure that in the hands of a pro,they
could be awesome.For the price they are very useful.
Listen to "DADF#AD" on my nowhere page if you want to hear a stereo
pair.http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1811&alid=-1

Great fricken tune!