Bypassing the Mixer COMPLETELY.

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Haha, yea but it will be a while before it's complete, i have other things like school to deal with, but hey there are student loans right? The first step is the Rotel amp, the monitors, the audiophile, maybe a DMP3 preamp, a studio projects C1 mic, a couple of Behringer ecm8000 mics, a shure sm57, and an RNC compressor. Then i'll work away at the Vandersteen's. So the 2ce is much better than the 1 model?

The local place said that the Ra-01 wasn't even on their list, so i guess they don't even have access to it, they thought maybe it was a Europe exclusive thing? I'm going to Contact the two stores in Vancouver that stock Rotel and see what they say.

So the Vandersteen 1C model would be a lot better than the floor standing b&w dm602.5's? And the Vandersteen 2ce would be much better than the 1c's..

And cables is there a certain brand? I know monster is supposed to be over kill, or too pricey or whatever..
 
Hmm, there are NO Vandersteen dealers near me. Only 2 in Canada, none within driving distance. I'd have to fly across the country... Ayre also has no dealers near me, but i think i could contact them, their website is a little bit more coherent.

And the website has no email address as far as i can see so i don't know how i'd ask if they could ship them.. hmm... Any ideas?
 
Not to ruin you guys' jizzfest over cool shit... But I've found that progear, especially synths and things like that are not good to run through your hifi gear. It's real easy to fuck up hifi speakers with an instrument. I mean using hifi monitors with a small amp to monitor is one thing , but I don't plug my instruments or mixers into my hifi gear anymore unless kept at very low levels. It's very easy to blow that shit up with a synth. Believe me. I've blown a ton of speakers!

And monster cable is cheap ass shit at a premium price. Check out kimber cable.
 
I don't think i'd be playing instruments live through the amp/speakers, just for playback.

Also on the subject of hifi versus prosound, would you recomend any prosound amps?
 
subtractor said:
Not to ruin you guys' jizzfest over cool shit.
Click to expand...
Hehehe, are you sure you dont want to join us ... :)

But seriously subtractor is making an important point ... dont expect rock concert levels - it aint a guitar stack. Understand the tradeoffs you are making between loudness, quality and price. Use it for its intended purpose.
 
What about the Hafler TA1600
It's 75 watts a per channel, designed for proaudio studio stuff so it would take all of those nasty transients well, and it's a few hundred less than the Rotel.

Now it has almost double the wattage, but it's cheaper? Now i know because the Hafler is designed as a work horse it isn't exactly elegant or great sounding, and the Rotel is Hi Fi so it's designed for great sound...

You were talking about the Rotel being more power simply because it is a good quality Hi Fi amp, and they are usually more powerful than cheaper amps. Would the cheaper amps you were refering to be ones like that Hafler? or would they be more like the Cheap jvc's and pinoneers and sony's you get at typical big electronics chains?

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=2231&Category=Monitoring

It's 1/4 and XLR which would work better with the monitors and a Delta 44, because i wouldn' thave to adapt to and from RCA. But i like the idea of having a good quality Hi Fi amp as well... Hmm this is tough. What would be the major benefits of going with the Rotel even though it has less wattage? I know the quality is much better, but if just being used for monitors maybe that isn't the major issue? If i decided that i was just going to get a Set of Foor Standing B&W's and that i couldn't afford the Ayre amp and Vandersteen speakers then it would be worth while, becuase i'd have a hi fi amp to drive them, and the monitors. But if i'm getting a seperate amp for the hi fi speakers... maybe another hi fi amp would be not so practical?

I really don't know i'm trying to use some sort of logic. What do you think alfalfa, or others?
 
The Hafler looks rugged and reliable and a good amp for its intended purpose (pro studios, live installations). However I dont think those are issues in a home recording situation and would go for Rotel for better sound quality and accuracy ... others may have different opinions.

You cant compare power ratings without actually listening to both amps side by side or seeing independent measurements and tests. For one thing, the Hafler power rating is quoted at 0.1% THD (distortion) while the Rotel rating is at 0.03% - ie the haflers specs are at more than 3 times the distortion.

A concern about the Hafler is that its power rating into 4ohm is 75watts suggesting difficulty supplying enough current to drive difficult speaker loads (like a full range floor stander) or that the 60W is a marketing exaggeration. A good amp should be able to double its power rating when going from 8ohms to 4ohms. I would generously rate the Hafler as a 40W amp (at 8ohms) rather than 60W for comparitive purposes to the Rotel

I havent seen the measured 4ohm performance of the RA-02 but rotel is typically quite good at not fudging their specs. If you look at the measured performance of their RB 1080 power amp in this stereophile review you will see the amp is advertised as a 200W @ 8ohm amp. Its measured performance is 291W @ 8 ohm and 558W @ 4 ohm. It does way more than double its quoted 200W when driving a 4ohm source ... evidence that typically Rotel is very conservative in its power specifications.

http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?608

Hence I doubt the Hafler is more 'powerful' than the RA-02. It is more rugged and has more protection features. I doubt it sounds anywhere near as good or accurate but I havent heard it (only some very poor sounding Alesis studio amps - dont buy Alesis). You should listen to any equipment before you buy.

An alternative to Rotel is NAD (which your local dealer also stocks). NAD amps have a soft clipping feature to prevent amp damage to your speakers when you turn the volume up. Of course when you turn the protection on, the amp doesnt sound as good but thats the price you pay for some safety for very high volumes. NAD also has a more budget mode c320 which is about the same price as the hafler I think, and a C350 that competes with the RA-02. Go talk to your dealer and have a listen. Perhaps NAD is a good compromise between safety and sound quality for you.

Finally if you get the Hafler what are you going to use as your volume control?
 
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I didn't really want the hafler i just wanted you to tell me why! haha, but yea i definatly agree with you.

I see the NAD 350 is 60watts per channel. Would the same principle apply to the NAD vs the Rotel as it did with the Rotel vs the Hafler? Or is the NAD actually a bit more powerful? I guess i'd have to listen side by side. Do you know if the NAD is much more expensive?

I need to get down and listen to them, unfortunatly i wouldn't be able to listen to the speakers with the Amps considering i'd have to get the Yorkvilles from Long and Mcquade.

I doubt they would let me take in the yorkvilles after buying them from long and mcquade to test out the amps in the store. But i guess i could try. The only thing that concerns me with the Rotel is that i guess since it's hi fi, all of the connections are RCA. And i believe monitor speakers are 1/4 and so are most sound cards. Would it be hard to get adapters to do all that, and would i loose much signal?
 
Man is that why you made me type out all that stuff... :)

But its good you are investigating all options and not just listening to one guys opinion. I'm just making sure you have some hard facts and figures (there is so much marketing crap in both pro audio and hifi).

Go talk to your hifi dealer. Ask him if you can bring the Yorkvilles to test in his shop or if you can borrow both the NAD and Rotel for a day or two. A good dealer should definitely let you test in his shop (you might need to book a time when he is free enough to set it up for you). He might let you take the amps home if he thinks that you will definitely buy one of them (and if he has enough display stock). You may need a deposit of some kind. This a good test of your dealer. You have to listen before you buy.

If you are really young you might want to bring your dad and dress decently - just to make sure the dealer realises you are serious and not wasting his time (my apologies if this advice is unnecessary or not relevant - I am not trying to be condescending). Appearances matter in life no matter what idealists say. Unfortunately some hifi dealers can be a little snobbish.
Dont test all his gear and take up his time if you are only going to mail order from somewhere cheaper - that is unfair to him.

Dont spend much on speaker cable at this stage. You probably wont hear the difference. If he wants to sell you expensive cable he should let you borrow both cheap and fancy cables and test them at home to see if they make a difference to you.

A good dealer will give you good advice on NAD vs Rotel and what you need. Lets see what he says. My guess is the RA-02 and c350 are similar in real power output but you can compare them side by side. Ask him about the soft clipping feature and if it is actually useful.

By the way are you going to audition the yorkvilles compared to the Tannoy Reveals? I have heard the reveals before and they are quite a good natural sounding speaker. They may sound dull at first in comparison but remember the yorkvilles have elevated upper mids and highs. Not sure if it is worth the price difference though. The yorkvilles are probably a great bargain in canada.

Trying out different gear is the fun part. Enjoy

Oh with the cables, I am sure you can buy 1/4 to rca cables. If not you can use adaptors (radioshack etc). Not sure how much effect on sound quality it will have (not too much). Learning to make your own is the best option - good cable is expensive but making your own is cheap. Ask some of the forum members or do a search.
 
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Ok great. Well no i needed the info of course, i want to learn, don't think your wasting your breathe or anything!
Yea i am young, 18 for another few months. So no offense taken. Hopefully the shop is good about it and will let me try out the speakers with the amps some how. It's not exactly a cheap piece of equipment. Well compared to the gear they normally sell maybe it is cheap, but 700 dollars of business is still 700 dollars.

They also have the Reveals at the Long and mcquade store so i will be testing those as well. Yea i'm going to test out as much as i can and have fun with it.
 
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Hmm, so for the cables. I have made cables before i just remembered. Just with some 16 gauge wire from radio shack, and some mono 1/8' male connectors. i just soldered them on. It was pretty easy. Can i buy good thick cable like on mic cables and buy 1/4' and rca connectors made to be put on them? Also do you need different cables for amp-speakers and you do soundcard-amp, or mic-preamp, or preamp-sound card?
 
amp to speakers is speaker cable. you can buy it from your hifi dealer when you get your amp.

for everything else buy a roll of microphone cable (eg canare) and whatever type of connectors you need (neutrik is a good brand).

why dont you start up a new topic on cables and get opinions from others or do a search? I am not that familiar with making cables (i am hopeless at soldering and diy).
 
On the topicx of why buy a mixer (i think this was the thead),. I pxked up a cheap behringer just for the preamps. After the shitty hifi I was using to monitor blew itself up I discovered the control room headphones. Now I just route my soundcard into the 2 track in for monitoring. I have to fine tiune levels in the maudio control panel but that's no problem, unless you leave the "2 track to mix" button pressed like I discovered I did today <sigh>.

The point is there lot's of uses for a mixer. I'm not saying anyone should buy one, but they are more than just mic pres.
 
yea the integrated rotel amp has a headphone output, and you can plug your soundcard into it.
all i would use the mixing board for is the preamps, and for headphone mixes and controlling the sound level of my monitoring speakers...

As far as i know there aren't many other really useful features of a mixer for a home recording environment. I won't use it live or anything. I wouldn't use the EQ...
 
If you have a lot of sources like keyboards, sound modules, samplers etc then a mixer is a cost effective way for combining all their outputs when doing midi sequencing (rather than getting a big soundcard with enough inputs for all your sources).

You didnt sound like you were doing stuff like that.

If you were I would just buy a behringer and use it just for that - not for controling the monitor volume or eq or for its pres (you can use its pres at first till you upgrade to a good pre). When recording your midi to audio then plug each instrument directly into the soundcard for best quality.
 
Yea i don't really have a lot of that stuff.
I want to buy a cheap midi controller keyboard. But i could plug that directly into my sb card.
 
Well damn i'm back on another contraversy here.

Ok financially this is what i'm seeing.

The mackie board seems like the most economical way to go, even if i just use the pre's. In canada that's 4 good preamps for $690. One DMP3 is about $375, so that means that for 4 channels of DMP3 it's going to be $750. AND i've heard the preamps in the Mackie are actually better than the DMP3. So i'm paying more, for lower quality preamps, plus i get the features of the mixer to boot just incase i ever need them... ok.

Well the main reason i was trying to go the stand alone preamp, passive monitors and amp route was to phase out the mixer, to save on money and get some nicer preamps. But it looks like the best way to get good preamps is the mixing board.. so why not save a bit more and get the Active Yorkvilles?

Rotel RA-02 is $660 canadian, the Yorkville YSMi's are $340. That's $1000. The Active Yorkville YSMip's are $740 Canadian. So i'd save another $250 there.

And i'd have better quality mic pres, mixer features, and save about 500 bucks. BUT, is this Rotel really worth it. Will it give me way better sound than the Active Yorkvilles? The thing about the Rotel is i could plug some Hi Fi speakers into it as well in the future and it's usefulness would double.

So what do you all think (alfalfa?). Do you think the Mixer/active route is best for me? Is there a stand alone preamp out there that is better quality than the Mackies pre's that is also about the same price per channel?

It seems like to start out this might be the best route... but i did like the idea of having that Hi Fi amp, so i'm still on the fence...
 
If money is an issue try a cheaper NAD c320. It should still be powerful enough for nearfield monitoring but may limit you future upgrade path. The Rotel gives you more flexibility down the track when upgrading your speakers (eg adding full range floor standers). Active monitors also give you less flexibility to upgrade so decide if that is important.

I have not heard direct comparisons of the dmp3 to the mackie so cannot comment from experience. Everything I have read suggests the dmp3 is a superior pre to a mackie - there is usually a reason why it costs more per channel.
The behringer ultragain is a decent standalone pre at a cost per channel similar to a mackie mixer (do a search on the harmony central forums - there have been heaps of posts on pres recently). Apparently the new behringer UB series mixers also have pres that are nearly as good - why dont you compare them yourself in the shop with your mics.

Do a google group search on rec.audio.pro
The general consensus there is that mackie has better reliability and after sales service than behringer, but very little improvement in sound quality ie they reckon both are crap - behringer being crap at half the price and mackie being reliable crap. Of course they are used to much better gear. On this forum mackies are well loved. My guess the main reason mackies cost more is because of the high costs of manufacturing in the US - not because fo better design or components. Mackie is moving production over to China so they can be more competitive on price (mackie has serious financial issues currently).

I personally would not spend all that money on a mackie. If you want a mixer get a behringer (make sure you buy locally so you can find one that works). Save you cash to upgrade to a good dedicated pre. Stick with the separate integrated amp and passive speakers. I bought active speakers and have difficulty in upgrading in steps (I now need to buy both amp and speakers for an upgrade because I didnt think long term). Thats just my opinion. Other people think you should buy the cheapest stuff you can use now and save for a major upgrade of everthing later when you have more experience in what you need (and have heaps more cash).

It would be easier to understand your needs if you told us what you are planning to record, how many simultaneous tracks etc
 
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Yea i'm thinking you are definatly right. I like the idea of having one really good quality preamp as opposed to 4 not so great ones and a bunch of mixer functions i won't use.

Well i'm planning on buying a delta 44 right now, with 4 inputes and 4 outputs. I will most likely record a max of 2 inputes at a time. Sometimes 3, and on very rare occasions 4 if i'm doing some drum samples or whatever.

Sometimes just stereo micing a guitar or instrument. Sometimes mono micing one. sometimes a mic for vocals. Maybe i'd record my brother singing and playing at the same time with 3 mics? But usually 2. I just need 2 really good pre's. I already have an ART studio MP so i could have 3 channels.

That's another thing, 2 channels of really good pre's would be better than 4 channels of lower quality mackie pre's.

Yea i do like the idea of the amp and passive. Because i can always get another set of passive for relativly cheap, for a second reference, or to replace the yorkvilles or whatever, but if i got actives, it would have cost so much i couldn't do that.

I just need a good LD condensor for vocals. A good matched pair of SD condensors for recording instruments (maybe a pair of sp B1's? i hear they are good for this? even though they are LD condensors), and i need 2 channels of good preamps.
 
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