Bypassing the Mixer COMPLETELY.

[ambi]

But do you think it would be a good idea to get a Cheaper Rotel amplifier, the one with 40watt x 2 channels at 8 ohms, and then some real passive monitors?

What are some good passive monitors? I know about actives but i've never looked into passives.

The idea of getting some nice b&w speakers and a rotel amp is dreamy but i guess not practical for mixing. But i'd need an amp for passive's anyways, so would a Rotel be a good choice? Are there any other specific amps that work well with passive monitors that i should know about? I really know nothing about passives.

Also are the integrated amplifiers i'm looking at? Or stereo Amplifiers? I see different ones with different classifications like those.

 

[alfalfa]

The idea of getting some nice b&w speakers and a rotel amp is dreamy but i guess not practical for mixing.

Ambi have you read the sound on sound articles on HiFi speakers versus monitors? There is no reason why accurate B&Ws cannot be used for mixing. I thought you were going to get the Yorkvilles because of budget constraints (SOS has also reviewed them - found them a little bright but useable). If you are willing to spend more check out B&W or some of the Paradigm range (They are also made in canada). However be aware that some of Paradigm's models like the budget atom feature a mid bass hump to give the illusion of more of bass making them inaccurate and probably unsuitable as monitors. Check out the measurements in this stereophile review (ignore the subjective review, concentrate on the measurements and analysis). Also note the flaws in the crossover region.
http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?664

Its a pity studio monitors are not available with such comprehensive measurements. We would learn a lot more about them and realise not all are as accurate as we think (while some are awesome). See the SOS article regarding the KRK K-Roks, monitors that also feature a mid bass hump and a poorly designed crossover. Compare that with the well designed Dynaudio BM5 and B&W.

Also are the integrated amplifiers i'm looking at? Or stereo Amplifiers? I see different ones with different classifications like those.

An integrated amp is a hifi preamp (ie volume control and source switching) and poweramp in one unit. A stereo amplifier is probably just a power amp (ie no volume control) and is meant to be used with a hifi preamp or the monitor outputs of a mixer.

 

[alfalfa]

So i guess i need a new sound card with 2-4 inputs, i need at least 2 decent channels of preamps, i need a couple of mics, and this amp and speakers.

Sounds good to me. My philosophy is a few good things rather than lots of average things (unfortunately I learnt this after buying lots of average things). An M-Audio audiophile, Echo Mia (I use a mia) or Terratec soundcard is a good start. The digital inputs and outputs will allow you to upgrade to better convertors in time. Check out the other forums for advice on mic pres (Grace 101 seems good and so does the RNP and upcoming Studio Projects pre) and mics (try this article http://www.piemusic.com/mp/micproj.html )

Would you recomend Shelling out a bit more for a set of B&W speakers, or something along those lines? Would a 40watt Royer amp do them justice?

Thanks a lot for your help by the way. You really seem to know what you're talking about and i apricate you taking the time to help.

I think 1 good set of speakers is better than 2 not so good sets. I have not seen any comprehensive measurements on the DM603 (or done any listening). Paul White from SOS has reviewed them and he usually is quite good at pointing out accuracy flaws. They have also measured the DM303 and it also appears to be pretty good except for a small rise between 4-8khz. Dont see any obvious reason why you cant combine your stereo and monitoring needs in one speaker. The more music you listen to on these speakers, the better you will mix on them.

It is useful to check your mix out on different speakers as well(eg car, boombox etc).

Glad I could help. When I started, I knew nothing and spent money buying stuff I didnt really need or that was very average quality. Hopefully I can save others from learning the hard (expensive) way.

 

[ambi]

Yea i was thinking of an audiophile. It would be nice for the digital inputs, and the rca connectors to go to the amplifier. I can get the Delta 44 for not that much more money, and it has 4 inputs and 4 outputs, but all 1/4' and no digital stuff...

So it wouldn't matter if i got Rotel Hi Fi amp, instead of one made just for studio stuff like a Hafler (is that just for studio style stuff?). The Ra-02 would be nice because it has quite a few other inputs so i could plug in a cd player or whatever other signal i wanted (record player), whatever. Also is Rotel considered to be a very high end hi fi audio company? I read some reviews that gave the Ra-02 tons of praise, so it seems like a very good company? Just wondering if there would be anything out there better for about the same price. Also i read in the review that there is a Ra-01(i think it's 01) which is essentially the same amp without the remote control for about 100 pounds less.

I did read that sound on sound comparision between the HiFi and Studio speakers. It seemed the the B&W's held up very well agaisnt the other ones (even the dynaudio, i was under the impression dynaudio were high end monitors?). And that was the 300 series B&W, the cheaper one. So the 602 would even be a lot better, with a bigger woofer for better bass?

I have a cheap set of paradigm book shelfs, but they were bottom of the line when i got them about 4 or 5 years ago, and they are running through a home stereo receiver, really bad quality.

But the store www.soundhounds.com has paradigm as well as many other brands.

Would you recomend any particular passive Monitoring speakers as options along with these HiFi speakers?

Or any other HiFi speakers?


Oh and it says that it has pre outs for bi amplification, and the B&w's have extra inputs for Bi amplification. That is where you use some sort of a crossover to seperate the high and low frequencies and they get amplified seperatly? I know most active monitors have seperate amplifiers for the tweeters and the bass drivers.

How would this be set up using an external integrated amplifier and passive speakers?

 

[alfalfa]

So it wouldn't matter if i got Rotel Hi Fi amp, instead of one made just for studio stuff like a Hafler (is that just for studio style stuff?).

Just like speakers, the main difference between studio amps and hifi amps is ability to play loud and reliability. Studio amps are designed to be used all day and played loudly without shutting or breaking down. You wont be subjecting your amp to such abuse in a home recording sitution so a hifi amp is better bang for your buck. Secondly I dont think hafler make an integrated amp only power amps so they cant control volume (your original problem)

The Ra-02 would be nice because it has quite a few other inputs so i could plug in a cd player or whatever other signal i wanted (record player), whatever. Also is Rotel considered to be a very high end hi fi audio company? I read some reviews that gave the Ra-02 tons of praise, so it seems like a very good company?

Rotel is actually considered entry level (ie budget or cheap) by the hifi crowd. They have a very good reputation because they use higher quality parts than their competitors and sound good (they spend less on advertising and appearance, though the new RA02 looks pretty fancy). Thats why they are a safe budget buy. Get the RA01 if you dont need the remote.

NAD and marantz are some competitors. Go to your local shop and see what else they have (how much is a Bryston?)

On further reflection you are probably safer avoiding Paradigm. I am worried about the midbass hump that seems to be on many of their bookshelf speakers. B&W looks like a safer option. The DM602 has more bass extension (DM303 seems a little too small). It should sound better than the DM303 but see if you can listen to both.
You can audition some passive monitors like Tannoy Reveals and Event 20/20 (though they may have too much loose bass). See what your music store has besides the Yorkvilles. In the end you might be happy with the YSM-1s.

 

[ambi]

The bryston is 1795 as far as a review on the website tells me.

So the Rotel isn't a great amp? But i'm assuming it's better quality than the multichannel home stereo receivers you see at a&b sound and future shop. They are like 400 watts, 6 channels, with tons of different features, and a decent one is the same price as the Rotel ra-02. So i'm guessing that the rotel is a much better amplifier considering it's all it does.
But compared to really high end audiophile stuff it's not so great. but compared to typical home stereo stuff it's good?

It would sound good with a pair of B&W DM602's?

I'm hoping it would be a huge improvement over the bottom of the line paradigm speakers i have now with a bottom of the line pioneer home stereo receiver.

Is it one of those things where i'd have to pay an extra 3000 to actually take a step up, or would i notice a huge difference just there? That's probably a stupid question, but hey..

Yea i'll see about taking a trip down and listening to a few speakers and seeing what they have in stock. It'll be a bit before i buy them so i have time to shop around and research.

 

[alfalfa]

The rotel is a GREAT amp for its price. Dont mistake me. They are way, way better than 6 channel home theater receivers (again its quality over quantity). And heaps better than a cheap sony or pioneer.

Its just that hifi amps can reach prices of US$20 000 or more (the hifi crowd have too much money). Check out halcros for a state of the art amplifier (a great aussie company).
www.halcro.com

ps i edited my previous message a little

 

[ambi]

man yea i understand why they say the rotel isn't very good! But yea i just wanted to make sure it was better than the other crap i was talking about, less is better! I just saw a Denon home theatre reciever for $5000 and i thought that was a lot!

Man those halcro's are crazy.

Yea my local long and mcquade carries the reveals and the ysmi's, and i think the hi fi store that has the b&w's also carries Tannoy.

I'll see what they have and what i can listen to. Unfortunatly i'm on an island (vancouver island), so there isn't a lot of options, but i'll do my best. I can always take a trip to Vancouver which is just a 2 hour ferry ride away, but i'd want to be certain of my purchase before the trip, so it wouldn't really work just to test out speakers..

But the Rotel ra-02 seems to be the best option. Although 100 pounds less for no remote is very enticing as well. I mean hell i'm going to be sitting down and mixing anyways i can reach the knob right? Assuming the amp costs 600 Canadian with the remote, and 400 without it, i'll get up.

What other options are there out there for passive monitors? I know of the Events, the tannoys, the yorkvilles... I know dynaudio, KRK, Mackie, Genelec, Maudio, etc.. But i dunno how available they are, and if they make passive versions.

Hmm well i guess i need to do some listening. The B&W's are more than double the price of the Yorkvilles. I don't mind saving a little long if it is really worth the difference. But i guess i'll just have to listen. I'll do some research and try to find out which one technically is the best. I think the 6.5' woofer of the yorkvilles wouldn't be as good for bass response as the larger woofers on the B&W's.

Are there other high end HiFi speakers worth a look? Hmm, i suppose if i get the B&W's, one day down the road i could get the Yorkvilles as well and just use them both. I believe the Ra-02 has some sort of speaker A/B thing on it so i could switch back and forth, that would be nifty.

The passive yorkvilles are quite cheap so that wouldn't be out of the question. Just depends on how i set my priorities and allot my funds.

 

[ambi]

One thing i just realized. The b&w's probably aren't shielded? My computer monitor might not like that.

the manual says they do create stray magnetic fields, and it's best to keep them .5meters away from tv's and computer screens.
That's not too far, i guess you are supposed to have your monitors on seperate stands back from your desk anyways...

 

[alfalfa]

Good point - they probably arent shielded. You cant have them right next to your monitor. Check if the yorkvilles are shielded. If you think you might be running two large computer monitors side by side then get a shielded speaker. Otherwise you will be ok.

Remember to budget (~US$100 ?) for some proper 1m high speaker stands - they will not sound good if not on stands. I have mine on either side and slightly behind the desk my computer monitor and mixer sit on. Keep speakers away (4 feet is a good starting point) from the wall behind it and away from corners and you should get good sound. The closer to the wall they sit, the more bass you will get but midrange and imaging will suffer due to reflections from the wall. Move the speakers forward and back until you are happy.

Dynaudio make good passives. Maybe you can ask other people what good passives are around in Canada. I could recommend you some accurate Aussie speakers (eg www.vaf.com.au or www.duntech.com.au ) but that wouldnt help you much. Look at the speaker measurements available on the VAF website. All manufacturers should provide data about their speakers.

Take your time and listen to as many as you can (see if they are willing to let you try them at home). Good luck. Dont get misled by speakers that hype highs and lows and have no mids.

 

[alfalfa]

I found an alternative volume control option.

http://www.i3audio.com/

Unfortunately it costs US$350 - nearly the price of an active monitor. The rotel option still looks like the best solution...

 

[ambi]

Yea that looks interesting but it's also the same price as the Rotel.

Hmm yea the dynaudio's are supposed to be good i should check their availability in my area.

I guess i could always get a pair of yorkvilles first, and then get some b&w's after, for personal use and for a second reference.

How would i go about setting up 2 sets of speakers like that in one room? I'm guessing it would be a bad idea to stack them on top of each other on the same set of stands...

And if i'm restricted to a small room and i maybe can't quite get 4 feet away will i suffer to much? I just have one big 19' monitor which i will have in the middle of my desk.

 

[ambi]

Hmmm i called the place that i can get this stuff from and they said the B&W dm602's are $770 for the pair, as opposed to $340 for the pair of Yorkville YSMi's.

The Rotel RA-02 is $660 which seems a little more resonable, but the b&w's seem to be a bit too much, maybe because they are imported from Britain? I think they are listed at 300 pounds on the b&w website. Which means the absolute most they would be there is that much, about $710... wait after the conversion i see it's only 60 dollars more, so i guess that's not bad.

So if i did take the YSMi for mixing and b&w for second reference and listening, would you recomend any other hi fi speakers in the same price range? Assuming they wouldn't be for mixing i think it would be a little more open? Any really high end brands i should be checking out?

I haven't decided either way i'm just trying to review my options... Also we decided that 40watts per channel is enough from the Rotel Amp for mixing at decent levels, but if i also used it for a stereo system and wanted to sometimes listen at louder levels, would this be a problem?

 

[alfalfa]

I haven't decided either way i'm just trying to review my options... Also we decided that 40watts per channel is enough from the Rotel Amp for mixing at decent levels, but if i also used it for a stereo system and wanted to sometimes listen at louder levels, would this be a problem?

Depends on how large your room is, how far you away you will be listening from and how loud you want it to go. It probably wont be enough for dance party / rock concert levels in a big lounge but should be ok otherwise ... only way to know is to try it out. Both the yorkvilles and B&Ws are quite sensitive so they should go quite loud with a low powered amp.

The yorkvilles will be better value since they are local for you and their appearance and finish is plain (thats why they have the ysm1i). Looking at their specs from the manual, there is a small mid bass hump at about 130-140hz and a rising response in the mids and highs. I would expect the mid bass to be more prominent than the B&Ws but have less deep bass (the ysms go down to about 60hz, +-3db response, on the plot - dm602 to 50hz). The highs will be more obvious, harsher and more fatiguing for extended listening periods but may make certain instruments 'clearer' (which some people like for mixing). The B&W also seem to have a rising high frequency response however.

Only by auditioning both will you know. Also look at the smaller B&W models DM601 and DM303 - they may have enough bass for your needs, especially in a small room.

Any of these speakers (or the Tannoy reveals) should be fine for your needs. Listen to them all. You might want to save money and get the Yorkvilles if you are happy with the sound. For a second set of speakers I would recommend saving for a full sized floor standing speaker so that you have full bass response (down below 40hz).

 

[ambi]

Full sized floor standing huh. Hmm that is a good idea. Yea the rooms will be very small, like, 12x 10, or 10x10, or 14x12, sory thing, maybe 16x14, who knows.

Yea so you think that getting two sets of bookshelfs would be a bad idea? Get some ones to monitor on, and then for ones to just listen to get some full floor standing ones. Would the b&w's be a good option for the floor standing? What other brands are good to look into? And do you think it would be best to get a slightly more powerful amp if i decided to power those by the same amp one day down the line?

 

[alfalfa]

A second set of full range speakers to be used as mid/far field monitors is a good complement to small nearfield speakers. Nearfields are good for mixing but its hard to know whats happening in the deep bass regions unless you check your mixes on full range speakers.

Big speakers may not work in a small bedroom - too much bass, harder to position optimally. They are usually designed to be listened to at a distance of 8ft. They are probably better off in your lounge, maybe as part of your home theater / main stereo system ... if you have the cash of course!

You cant go wrong with Vandersteen speakers ( www.vandersteen.com ).
The Vandersteen 2ce is a tested and proven speaker. Frequency response of 32hz - 21khz within 1.5db (not +-3db), time and phase accurate, minimum baffle design ... amazing performance for ~US$1500. The smaller 1C is good at half the price and is a good size for a smaller room. There is heaps of info on their website.

Thiel also make very accurate speakers but cost a lot more ( www.thielaudio.com ). I mentioned some good Aussie speakers earlier. Dunlavy were good (their big models are used at many mastering houses) but now out of business.

A Rotel RA-02 will probably not be enough to make the most of these speakers - the vandersteen 1C and thiel 1.6 should be ok but maybe not their big brothers. These high resolution speakers should make improvements in amplification and sources more obvious.

If you want to learn a lot about speakers and hifi go to www.audioperfectionist.com - the first two issues are free to download. The watchdog section is also good.

 

[ambi]

Sweet thanks for the sites. Yea those all look pretty good, and i'm thinking of somethign that will last a while. Eventually i'll put together a full home stereo system piece by piece, and move them out of my bedroom or whatever into a bigger room. But it's nice to buy once and not twice!

Do you think upgrading to the next level of Rotel amps would make any difference? The next step up i believe is 60watts per channel instead of 40, would this be much of a difference?

I'm gonna get to reading...

 

[alfalfa]

I just realised the RA-01/02 models replaced the 971/972 models not the 931. That means they are more powerful (and expensive) than I thought. Anyway they'll be powerful enough for your needs. Dont bother getting the 60w rotel, save your cash for future upgrades (and recording gear and instruments).

They should be okay driving big floorstanders like the vandersteen 2ce at moderate volumes ... just as long as you are not driving your nearfields at the same time. The 2ce will benefit from a better and bigger amp when you have the cash but the RA-01 will be fine for them at first.

Man, I just read the manual for the RA-01. The monitor knob is really useful. You can use it to save your self a lot of plugging and unpluggin cables. Connect your source equipment to the rotel inputs (eg mic pre, synth, turntable etc). Go from the Rotel tape out to the input of your soundcard. Go from the output of your soundcard to the tape in. Then you can use the function knob to select whats going into the soundcard, and the monitor knob select whether you are listening to whats going in the soundcard or whats going out of the soundcard. The speaker selection knob is great too since you can mute the speakers ... I have to reach around and turn off my powered monitors if I want to hear headphones only (eg when recording vocals). There are other setups possible too. So cool ... now I'm getting really jealous (why oh why did i buy a mixer and active monitors???).

I can see a good upgrade path for you. Get the RA-01 with whichever nearfields you decide on. Next upgrade is to get the Vandersteen 2CE signatures (and move to a bigger room). Finally add an Ayre AX-7 amp for the Vandersteens. That would leave you with an awesome accurate, natural, musical system that should last you years and years (which can be setup for surround sound too).

You can read about Ayre equipment at www.ayre.com

The Vandersteen 2CE was actually the main speaker used when they were designing and testing the AX-7, so it should make a great combo. Check out this article
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1102/ayreax7intamp.htm

 

[ambi]

Sweet i'm getting excited now. First off i think i'd just get the RA-02 simply because they don't stock the RA-01 where i live, but it's identical just it has a remote. I might see if i can find the ra-01 amp somewhere else, maybe take that ferry ride if it can save me 200 bucks. I guess i could always get the Rotel RA-01 (if i can find it, if not the RA-02, same amp) and the yorkvilles, and then when i get money some time in the future get the Vandersteen's, and use them with the Rotel for a while, then get the Ayre... Hmmm... drooling...

Ok so it wouldn't be best just to get the Ayre amp right away? Or is the Ayre not integrated, so i'd need to use the Rotel as a preamp? I guess the Rotel would be nice for monitoring because of all the usefull features that relate to recording. Would i just have the Ayre dedicated to the Hi Fi speakers, and the Rotel dedicated to the Yorkvilles? Also do you know an approximate price on the Ayre amp?

By the way do you have a link to the Rotel manual? I can't seem to find one on their site!

I was reading through those audioperfectionist free journals and they are great. He gave the Vandersteen 2ce great praise. I'm guessing they'd be HEAPS better than those floor standin b&w dm602 5's. About double the price, but i telling myself worth it!

Also in the future if i was to make a home stereo setup, could i use the Vandersteen's and the Ayre for the front two speakers, and add in some other speakers and i guess amps to put together a system with a dvd player? I guess i could use the Rotel to power some rear speakers, and get a powered sub, and a good DVD player... Or does that not work having all those seperate amplifiers and control knobs for rear and front and sub, etc...

"Then you can use the function knob to select whats going into the soundcard, and the monitor knob select whether you are listening to whats going in the soundcard or whats going out of the soundcard."

Could i hear what is going through the microphone AND the track being played at the same time? So if i was recording someone singing, they could hear themselves through the headphone mix coming from the computer? I can't currently do this without the aid of a mixer, because i still have a crappy SB card and the latency is terrible, but i guess if i got an Audiophille 2496 the latency wouldn't be an issue, so maybe that's a useless question.

 

[alfalfa]

Maybe your local shop can order the RA-01 in for you if you guarantee to buy it. Its nice to develop a relationship with your local dealer - if they seem like friendly, helpful guys - especially since other shops are so far away.
You can download the manuals at www.superfi.co.uk

The Ayre retails for US$2950. Thats why I have it as the last step on the upgrade path. Its an integrated amp.

Also in the future if i was to make a home stereo setup, could i use the Vandersteen's and the Ayre for the front two speakers, and add in some other speakers and i guess amps to put together a system with a dvd player? I guess i could use the Rotel to power some rear speakers, and get a powered sub, and a good DVD player... Or does that not work having all those seperate amplifiers and control knobs for rear and front and sub, etc...

Perhaps you could use your Yorkvilles as the rears of your home theater setup and as well as your nearfields- you could combine a studio with a home theater.
Dont worry about the extra volume knobs. Normally you set the volume knob at a fixed postion, calibrate the volume on your dvd player or AV preamp, and use that to control volume. The ayre also has a bypass function to act as a pure power amp for this very situation.

Could i hear what is going through the microphone AND the track being played at the same time? So if i was recording someone singing, they could hear themselves through the headphone mix coming from the computer? I can't currently do this without the aid of a mixer, because i still have a crappy SB card and the latency is terrible, but i guess if i got an Audiophille 2496 the latency wouldn't be an issue, so maybe that's a useless question.

The audiophile will let you do it so dont worry.

Actually I've had another idea. Why not consider Vandersteen VSM-1 surround speakers as your nearfield monitors. They are designed sound good when mounted on the wall - meaning you wont have positioning or space issues in a small room. They also come with wall mounts saving you the cost of speaker stands. In a small room they should sound better than poorly positioned bookshelf speakers. They also use a coaxial design so they sound good whether you are standing or sitting.

However they retail for US$950 - probably way too much for your current budget. But at the end of the upgrade path you will end up with matching vandersteens all round. Or maybe stick with the yorkvilles and get the VSM-1s as the last step of the upgrade after the Ayre. Anyway just some thoughts.

Yeah those AudioPerfectionist journals are great. I think I learnt more from them in a day than 6 month of reading stuff all over the internet

Mate, I'm getting excited for you and I'm on the other side of the planet and will never get to hear your system!