S
skaltpunk
New member
So I'm going to buy a mic preamp from ART, which one is the best value under $200?
Leeking
New member
a few suggestion:
1. ART tube MP/ studio
2. Joemeek VC3Q
3. Behringer MIC2200
I am planning to get one of those behringer's one...
1. ART tube MP/ studio
2. Joemeek VC3Q
3. Behringer MIC2200
I am planning to get one of those behringer's one...
R
Reqs
New member
Searched?
Have you done a good search at this board and on the net in general? Google groups (deja.com) is a good place to start. I was interested in the ART MPs also, but changed my mind after I looked into them more. They get decidedly mixed reviews.
-Niels
Have you done a good search at this board and on the net in general? Google groups (deja.com) is a good place to start. I was interested in the ART MPs also, but changed my mind after I looked into them more. They get decidedly mixed reviews.
-Niels
G
Gargamel
New member
See the post titled "hey harv"
M
Mark H.
New member
I posted this a few minutes ago under another thread, but you might find it useful:
As part of my attempt to learn about recording, I recently purchase the $110 set of three compact discs from 3DAudioinc.com, in which a group of sound engineers near Nashville gathered to do blind listening tests of 33 microphone preamps and 49 vocal microphones (those were separate tests, of course -- ).
Listening to this set is extremely revealing. Since one of the mic preamps they tested was the Mackie 1604 VLZ PRO, it set a very useful "baseline" for me against which to compare all the others. I had recently bought a used Mackie 1202 VLZ PRO for $275, which has 4 of exactly the same XDR mic preamps in it as the 1604 that was included in their test.
The tests included no "dogs." They weren't looking to put down or laugh at cheap equipment. These guys are serious. At less than $100 per channel, the Mackie was by far the least expensive preamp they tested. The next lowest price units were the ART Tube Channel and the dbx 376; if I'm remembering correctly, everything else listed for $1000 to more than $4000, with most in the $1500 to $2500 range.
On a $5,000 stereo, there was frightfully little difference among most of the models. On a $10,000 stereo with a somewhat overly articulate high end (some would called it annoyingly bright), the differences were more clear, until I got the list down to the top five or six preamps. At that level, I could talk about the "differences," but claiming one was necessarily "better" than another became almost impossible. In the end, I've picked out two to put on my wish list that do in fact sound different from each other, but I would be thrilled to own either one.
But to the point at hand --- as we sat eliminating one preamp after another based on sometimes barely perceptible issues of grain, top end harshness, air around the performer, congested lower midrange, perceived depth of soundstage, and other such things that are so subjective you can never be 100% certain you are even talking about the same things
, the little Mackie mixer with the XDR preamps still sounded "very nice."
Did the Mackie make it into the final cut? No. If it did, there'd be some very famous designers jumping off of roofs about now. But the Mackie was never fatiguing, delivered good detail, and was always musical. That it did not provide the breathtaking realism and stunning timing of the best preamps should come as no surprise. What is surprising is that we found it to sound as good as or better than about a third of the other preamps in this collection of high-quality mic preamps, making the Mackie XDR preamps the bargain of the decade.
It *might* be a waste of money to purchase a stand-alone mic preamp that sells for less than $400 or $500 if a Mackie 1202 VLZ PRO would work for you. (Exceptions would include portable mic preamps, such as the Denecke In-Box or the ATI, both around $300 or so.) But even if you plan to spend $1000 or more on a mic preamp, it might pay to compare it to a $380 Mackie mixer before you lay down your hard-earned cash.
Since the Mackie 1202VLZ PRO is Mackie's entry-level mixer, you'll find them for sale used more often than any other. If you're shopping used on eBay or Digibid.com, please note that there will be lots of older Mackie 1202 and 1202VLZ mixers, as well as the latest 1202VLZ PRO. Hold out for the latest unless price is your main object.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
As part of my attempt to learn about recording, I recently purchase the $110 set of three compact discs from 3DAudioinc.com, in which a group of sound engineers near Nashville gathered to do blind listening tests of 33 microphone preamps and 49 vocal microphones (those were separate tests, of course -- ).
Listening to this set is extremely revealing. Since one of the mic preamps they tested was the Mackie 1604 VLZ PRO, it set a very useful "baseline" for me against which to compare all the others. I had recently bought a used Mackie 1202 VLZ PRO for $275, which has 4 of exactly the same XDR mic preamps in it as the 1604 that was included in their test.
The tests included no "dogs." They weren't looking to put down or laugh at cheap equipment. These guys are serious. At less than $100 per channel, the Mackie was by far the least expensive preamp they tested. The next lowest price units were the ART Tube Channel and the dbx 376; if I'm remembering correctly, everything else listed for $1000 to more than $4000, with most in the $1500 to $2500 range.
On a $5,000 stereo, there was frightfully little difference among most of the models. On a $10,000 stereo with a somewhat overly articulate high end (some would called it annoyingly bright), the differences were more clear, until I got the list down to the top five or six preamps. At that level, I could talk about the "differences," but claiming one was necessarily "better" than another became almost impossible. In the end, I've picked out two to put on my wish list that do in fact sound different from each other, but I would be thrilled to own either one.
But to the point at hand --- as we sat eliminating one preamp after another based on sometimes barely perceptible issues of grain, top end harshness, air around the performer, congested lower midrange, perceived depth of soundstage, and other such things that are so subjective you can never be 100% certain you are even talking about the same things
, the little Mackie mixer with the XDR preamps still sounded "very nice." Did the Mackie make it into the final cut? No. If it did, there'd be some very famous designers jumping off of roofs about now. But the Mackie was never fatiguing, delivered good detail, and was always musical. That it did not provide the breathtaking realism and stunning timing of the best preamps should come as no surprise. What is surprising is that we found it to sound as good as or better than about a third of the other preamps in this collection of high-quality mic preamps, making the Mackie XDR preamps the bargain of the decade.
It *might* be a waste of money to purchase a stand-alone mic preamp that sells for less than $400 or $500 if a Mackie 1202 VLZ PRO would work for you. (Exceptions would include portable mic preamps, such as the Denecke In-Box or the ATI, both around $300 or so.) But even if you plan to spend $1000 or more on a mic preamp, it might pay to compare it to a $380 Mackie mixer before you lay down your hard-earned cash.
Since the Mackie 1202VLZ PRO is Mackie's entry-level mixer, you'll find them for sale used more often than any other. If you're shopping used on eBay or Digibid.com, please note that there will be lots of older Mackie 1202 and 1202VLZ mixers, as well as the latest 1202VLZ PRO. Hold out for the latest unless price is your main object.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
Mackie pres are a GREAT clean pre, but the Art can give you some nice warm tones if that what is needed........
R
Reqs
New member
Oh yea...
How soon do you want one (I know you want one now, I do too. Also got my eyes on new mixer, coupla mics, new sound card... Does it ever end!). But I'm waiting until Alan Hyatt releases the Studio Projects VT-1 MP, forgot to mention that one in my earlier post. I'm counting on high bang:buck ratio on that one. I think he says January...
-Niels
How soon do you want one (I know you want one now, I do too. Also got my eyes on new mixer, coupla mics, new sound card... Does it ever end!). But I'm waiting until Alan Hyatt releases the Studio Projects VT-1 MP, forgot to mention that one in my earlier post. I'm counting on high bang:buck ratio on that one. I think he says January...
-Niels
M
Mark H.
New member
Yes, I'm thinking the Studio Projects VT-1 is going to quietly destroy the low-end mic preamp market and put the fear of the Lord in some of the folks making preamps in the $400 or so range. And as Rip Rowan pointed out, Studio Projects mics are likely to change the entire industry, either by forcing the other companies to lower their prices or by becoming -- not over night, of course, but eventually -- the new standard.
The JOEMEEK folk, interestingly also part of the PMI group, in a sense have already carved out a niche separate from the preamp makers. They really are not offering mic preamplification per se, even though they are competing directly with preamps in the marketplace. The "perfect" mic preamp in the purist sense is arguably already available and well worth owning, and no matter who made it, it would have to be relatively expensive due to the parts and careful construction involved (and the fact that unlike VCRs and CD players, mic preamps are not found in every home in the US). Instead, JOEMEEK sells a finished sound. Some like it, some don't, but many people spend a lot of unnecessary time and a great deal of money trying to find much more expensive separate components that they HOPE will work together in order to come up with a type of sound that JOEMEEK sells right out of the box, ready to go, and for a lot less money.
Which means, in part, that you have to be honest with yourself about whether you are looking for a mic preamp, meaning "as close to straight wire with gain" as you can get, with absolutely no coloration whatsoever, or whether you're looking for some sort of signal processing, perhaps something that makes YOUR voice sound great, or something that's going to work reasonably well with everything, which may mean that it's fairly "forgiving," which also means it's somewhat rolled off and inaccuate.
Most low-end tube amps add a great deal of distortion and are pretty heavy-duty signal processors. If they add a sound that you find appealing and warm, that's terrific -- they're a bargain. But you can always add "warmth" after you've recorded, while it's a little hard to extract the original sound of the singer if it's already passed through a signal processor before it hits the tape or hard drive. Alan Hyatt promises something relatively unusual with the VT-1: a tube in the side chain that doesn't affect the signal path any more than you want it to; namely, a clean signal path with as much OR AS LITTLE tube effect as you want to dial in. That's different from a signal that is ALWAYS passed through a tube, with the user's control limited to how much the tube DISTORTS the sound, rather than how much the tube is allowed to add tonal coloration to a basically clean sound. (Hey Alan, if I'm not saying this correctly, please let me know -- I don't want to pass on misinformation because of my lack of understanding of the specifics.)
I guess that's why admire what they've done with the Mackie mixers, and why I'm looking forward to hearing the Studio Projects VT-1 preamp come January. Many of us may not yet know what "sound" we're really looking for, and we won't necessarily know until we hear it. Both the reasonably priced Mackie boards and the anticipated Studio Projects preamp, however, are inexpensive enough to try out without having to bet the house on it. Ditto the JOEMEEK VC3. Buy any of these items at a reasonably good price, and if you happen NOT to like them, chances are you can re-sell them without taking much of a beating. Few lessons of such great value in our hobby can be learned experientially for so little money.
Bravo to the Mackie mixer people and the PMI group for offering more than expected for the money.
Mark H.
The JOEMEEK folk, interestingly also part of the PMI group, in a sense have already carved out a niche separate from the preamp makers. They really are not offering mic preamplification per se, even though they are competing directly with preamps in the marketplace. The "perfect" mic preamp in the purist sense is arguably already available and well worth owning, and no matter who made it, it would have to be relatively expensive due to the parts and careful construction involved (and the fact that unlike VCRs and CD players, mic preamps are not found in every home in the US). Instead, JOEMEEK sells a finished sound. Some like it, some don't, but many people spend a lot of unnecessary time and a great deal of money trying to find much more expensive separate components that they HOPE will work together in order to come up with a type of sound that JOEMEEK sells right out of the box, ready to go, and for a lot less money.
Which means, in part, that you have to be honest with yourself about whether you are looking for a mic preamp, meaning "as close to straight wire with gain" as you can get, with absolutely no coloration whatsoever, or whether you're looking for some sort of signal processing, perhaps something that makes YOUR voice sound great, or something that's going to work reasonably well with everything, which may mean that it's fairly "forgiving," which also means it's somewhat rolled off and inaccuate.
Most low-end tube amps add a great deal of distortion and are pretty heavy-duty signal processors. If they add a sound that you find appealing and warm, that's terrific -- they're a bargain. But you can always add "warmth" after you've recorded, while it's a little hard to extract the original sound of the singer if it's already passed through a signal processor before it hits the tape or hard drive. Alan Hyatt promises something relatively unusual with the VT-1: a tube in the side chain that doesn't affect the signal path any more than you want it to; namely, a clean signal path with as much OR AS LITTLE tube effect as you want to dial in. That's different from a signal that is ALWAYS passed through a tube, with the user's control limited to how much the tube DISTORTS the sound, rather than how much the tube is allowed to add tonal coloration to a basically clean sound. (Hey Alan, if I'm not saying this correctly, please let me know -- I don't want to pass on misinformation because of my lack of understanding of the specifics.)
I guess that's why admire what they've done with the Mackie mixers, and why I'm looking forward to hearing the Studio Projects VT-1 preamp come January. Many of us may not yet know what "sound" we're really looking for, and we won't necessarily know until we hear it. Both the reasonably priced Mackie boards and the anticipated Studio Projects preamp, however, are inexpensive enough to try out without having to bet the house on it. Ditto the JOEMEEK VC3. Buy any of these items at a reasonably good price, and if you happen NOT to like them, chances are you can re-sell them without taking much of a beating. Few lessons of such great value in our hobby can be learned experientially for so little money.
Bravo to the Mackie mixer people and the PMI group for offering more than expected for the money.
Mark H.
tubedude
New member
Looks like the RNMP is gonna beat the VT-1 to market by a week or 3. These two will be neck and neck in the homerecording market, but I have a feeling the RNMP is gonna be one tough puppy to compete against. Just look at the RNC and compare it to any other $200 piece. No way. The RNMP has had me holding my breath for quite a long time now. Keep praying, its almost here, and the verdict will spread quickly.
M
Mark H.
New member
This is the first I'd heard. When is the Really Nice Microphone Preamp scheduled to be available to consumers?
Thanks,
Mark H.
Thanks,
Mark H.
V
virtual.ray
New member
If you're gonna try the Joe Meeks,I'd recommend the VC6Q over the VC3Q.I just took 'em both home over the weekend and the 6 sounds better,it's got less noise,and gives you a little more options like sweepable mids.I'm not saying the 3 is bad,'cause it's not,but if you can swing it get the 6. OUT
J
JuSumPilgrim
New member
In regard to Mark's post about mackie and the pre comparison CD
Id just like to point out something that doesnt come up alot in a discussion about preamps. While I havent heard the famous 3D Audio pre CD, my understanding is that its 1 instrument or vocal (I assume the same phrase or line of music) on each pre. What this neglects is that the effect of the preamp (especially with neutral pres which have their own tone in slight ways) in the aggregate. When you start layering 5 or 6 vocal tracks on top of 3 guitar tracks, what that particular pre does to the sound becomes more apparent. When you hear a fully mixed song where everything was recorded through a mackie or avalon or meek or neve, the overall mix has "this sound." You dont hear "that sound" very much in the one naked take. Its like 2 parallel lines which start out a few degrees not eactly parallel to each other - which end up in very different places.
Id just like to point out something that doesnt come up alot in a discussion about preamps. While I havent heard the famous 3D Audio pre CD, my understanding is that its 1 instrument or vocal (I assume the same phrase or line of music) on each pre. What this neglects is that the effect of the preamp (especially with neutral pres which have their own tone in slight ways) in the aggregate. When you start layering 5 or 6 vocal tracks on top of 3 guitar tracks, what that particular pre does to the sound becomes more apparent. When you hear a fully mixed song where everything was recorded through a mackie or avalon or meek or neve, the overall mix has "this sound." You dont hear "that sound" very much in the one naked take. Its like 2 parallel lines which start out a few degrees not eactly parallel to each other - which end up in very different places.
tubedude
New member
Keep in mind also that the Mackie suffers from a weak power supply. Get two or 3 pres running at the same time, and you start degrading the overall performance because there is a power sag and strong transients on one pre might sag other preamps. Good pres have expensive power supplies. Check out the API rackmounts and you'll know what I mean. The rack is more expensive than a preamp. Same with the John Hardy.
The RNMP is due NO LATER than last of December, 1st week if all goes well.
The RNMP is due NO LATER than last of December, 1st week if all goes well.
R
Reqs
New member
OK
I keep seeing your posts about the RNMP. Tell me more about this. Is FMR making this? I don't see anything about it at their website. If these guys are coming out with a preamp that's anything like the bargain that the RNC is, it could be huge!
I keep seeing your posts about the RNMP. Tell me more about this. Is FMR making this? I don't see anything about it at their website. If these guys are coming out with a preamp that's anything like the bargain that the RNC is, it could be huge!
N
nezpierce
New member
yes, do tell!
I can't wait to these two (RNMP and VT-1) duke it out
nP
I can't wait to these two (RNMP and VT-1) duke it out
nP
R
Reqs
New member
I did a deja news search at r.a.p. and found a little more info on the RNMP. Looks like it may price out higher than the VT-1, but as I said, if it is anything like the RNC, it'll be a killer.
tubedude
New member
FMR is terrible about updating thier website, I think its been the same for 2 years. I;ve been bugging them for a picture for 3 months. The RNMP is coming out in December, $399 list, and I doubt there will be much in the under-a-grand range that will touch it, but thats just speculation, we'll see soon... my fingers have been crossed for about 9 months now...
Another note, the RNC will be coming out in a Mercenary version in a few months with balanced outs and a few other additions, including the possibility of a "super-duper nice mode"
And lastly, FMR had already began work on the RNEQ, but they stopped development in favor of the preamp, but I would expect them to kick out the EQ in the next year or so. If its in the $400 range also, you can expect to design your own channel strip for about $700 or so, probably. The Mercenary version of the RNC will have a much higher price tag though.
THe RNMP is expected to have a "warm but highly detailed" sound. The only other info that I have heard is that it is a dual servo transformer balanced unit.
Another note, the RNC will be coming out in a Mercenary version in a few months with balanced outs and a few other additions, including the possibility of a "super-duper nice mode"
And lastly, FMR had already began work on the RNEQ, but they stopped development in favor of the preamp, but I would expect them to kick out the EQ in the next year or so. If its in the $400 range also, you can expect to design your own channel strip for about $700 or so, probably. The Mercenary version of the RNC will have a much higher price tag though.
THe RNMP is expected to have a "warm but highly detailed" sound. The only other info that I have heard is that it is a dual servo transformer balanced unit.
C
charger
New member
Mark H-
Your first post was very enlightening, thanks for that. Finding that discussion of preamps in a post about the ART was a pleasure. In fact, I think it might deserve its own discussion, if you got around to it. I'd love to see more people discussing the preamp shootout CD set, since I have so many other, more critical thing to spend my $110 on.
Your first post was very enlightening, thanks for that. Finding that discussion of preamps in a post about the ART was a pleasure. In fact, I think it might deserve its own discussion, if you got around to it. I'd love to see more people discussing the preamp shootout CD set, since I have so many other, more critical thing to spend my $110 on.
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getuhgrip
Bring Back Transfat!
When did the VC3Q come down to $200?
T
tdukex
Man of the Muse
getuhgrip said:
It's been about a month or so--about the same time the VC6Q came down to $350. Actually you can get the VC1Q for $500 if you are a real good horse trader.
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