Building a "Quiet" Wall, need some advice please.

[Ibrow]

Hey,

I am building a wall to separate a large room into a small room and a bedroom. The wall will divide the room, have a door, and both sides of the wall will be used and need to look nice. Most importantly, I want as little noise as possible to go from one side to the other. Simple enough, eh? Some questions.

I was planning on building with 2x4's. Will that be good enough to build a "quiet" wall? Should I double-sheetrock both sides? Also, what should I fill the gap between joists up with? Fiberglass insulation(R-13, R-19 etc.?)? Styrofoam? MDF? I read a few posts about rigid fiberglass. Would that be advisable? If so, where should I put it, and where can I buy it?

Finally, the door will most likely be the biggest sound leak. What type of door would you suggest? The room is a substandard height, so I will most likely have to cut the door, and jambs, at the bottom to fit it. In that case, should I get some kind of cheap hollow door and fill it up with something or other?

Thanks for any advice. I really don't know where else to go with these questions.

 

[mshilarious]

I was planning on building with 2x4's. Will that be good enough to build a "quiet" wall? Should I double-sheetrock both sides? Also, what should I fill the gap between joists up with? Fiberglass insulation(R-13, R-19 etc.?)? Styrofoam? MDF? I read a few posts about rigid fiberglass. Would that be advisable? If so, where should I put it, and where can I buy it?

Finally, the door will most likely be the biggest sound leak. What type of door would you suggest? The room is a substandard height, so I will most likely have to cut the door, and jambs, at the bottom to fit it. In that case, should I get some kind of cheap hollow door and fill it up with something or other?

Well the performance of the wall is going to be limited by your constraints, but you can make it quieter than a standard wall. Use 2x6 plates and 2x4 studs in an offset design. Fill the gaps with regular ol' roll insulation, rigid fiberglass is not necessary.

The door is going to be tougher; the quietest off-the-shelf solution is a solid core exterior door that comes with threshold & weatherstripping. You'll have to get a solid wood exterior door & cut down to size.

For better performance at higher cost, you could build two walls with a gap in between.

That will get you reasonable reduction in sound transmission, but it is far from total isolation (you'd have to work the ceiling & floor for that). How quiet does it need to be?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Will that be good enough to build a "quiet" wall? Should I double-sheetrock both sides? Also, what should I fill the gap between joists up with? Fiberglass insulation(R-13, R-19 etc.?)

Three ways to do this. All are a MASS - AIR - MASS system (2 LEAF)
Nominal
1. Single wall. 2 layers 5'8" drywall fastened to studs on one face. Batt type insulation spec dependent on cavity depth.
Resiliant Channel fastened to opposite face.
2 layers 5/8" drywall fastened to RC.
Solid core door. Heavy duty Jamb. Weatherstriping seals and threshold.
Wall cavity depth determines low frequency
transmisson loss.(2x6 better than 2x4)
Lots of details to consider. See below
Better
2. Single wall. Staggered Stud construction.
2x6 top and bottom plates. Staggered 2x4 studs.
2 layers 5'8" drywall fastened to studs on on both faces.
Batt type insulation weaved between studs.
. Solid core door. Heavy duty Jamb. Seals and threshold. Lots of details to consider. See below
Best
3. Double wall, 2x4 construction with 1" or larger gap between interior wall planes.(stud edge to stud edge) Total aiir gap is from interior face of drwall on one wall to interior face of opposite. Batt type insulation in wall cavities of both walls. Completely fill total airgap from floor up 24"min with insulation for firestop if required.(see your local codes)
2 layers 5/8" drywall at exterior face of each wall ONLY!!!
Double solid core doors with isolated jambs.(they don't touch!)
Door seals and thresholds(filled) mandatory to match wall STC rating or weak link syndrome prevails(probably will anyway )

Typical notes.
If you use RC, ask for fastening details for channel as well as drywall.
Drywall on RC, and one leaf(at least) of other wall types must "float" between existing walls, floor and ceiling. Leave 1/4" gap at complete perimeter,@ door jambs and at 1/16" gap at electrical boxes. Caulk first layer joints and gaps. Tape and mud first layer joints.
caulk each layer at as applied but do not caulk perimeter and jamb gaps yet.
Fasten 2 layer drywall. Now caulk all perimeter gaps and joints. Tape and mud joints. Taping and mudding gaps at "floating" membranes where they meet endwalls and ceiling is NOT advisable, however, it depends on how exacting your isolation goals are.
Trim at jambs must only be fastened to jambs, and caulked to drywall. Base board may be applied with construction adhesive to drywall, leaving 1/8" gap at floor, which must be caulked.
Daisychained electrical boxes to each room should be at least one wall caviety apart.

These are but a few details to consider. There are many more.

Note" typically, walls of this type also have a suspended or decoupled ceiling as well. In this case, the floor and ceiling "bridge" the wall and flanking via structural transmission still may occur. Flanking via HVAC ducting(if exists in both rooms, see codes for this)may also occur. Installation of serpentine flex duct with 3 90degree bends recommended.

Disclaimer. I am certainly no expert, and these suggestions are subject in whole or in part to other EXPERT opinion, via correction, overide, rejection or clarification. NO RIDICULE PERMITTED or else I'll kill ya!! (except by Rod maybe )
fitZ

 

[Ibrow]

Thanks for the ideas and help! I am going to have to read up on doing that offset design with the 2x4's. Is it offset every 8" then? Or every 16?

What is Resiliant Channel? Time to do a search.

Rick, for your 3rd solution, the double wall, I am trying to picture it. Basically, without the sheetrock, looking at the floor, I'd have a 2x4, a one inch gap, then another 2x4. Is that correct? So the actual "wall thickness" before finishing would be almost 9" wide? (More like 8 actually ) Then if I double sheetrock both sides with 5/8", the entire wall would be around 10 1/2" if I'm thinking correctly. Wow. LOL!

I'll have to head to Home Depot tomorrow to look at possible doors.

Thanks again!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Ibrow, here is a pic of staggered stud. In this pic, it looks like the studs for ONE FACE are at 24" oc but may be 16" oc, hard to say. Local code may dictate spacing.
Also, the next pic is an illustration of STC(Sound transmission Class) RATED partitions. NOTICE the double wall with DRYWALL at the airgap faces. Its rating is LOWER than the next 2 illustrations, where ONE layer is removed, and then BOTH are removed. Better isolation with less materials. This proves the worth of following TESTED and RATED partition construction. Some people still don't believe it. Sound transmission loss is NOT intuitive.
For the resiliant channel, do a search at US GYPSUM. I don't have the link handy. They manufacture it. So do others but I've heard that the others arn't test rated.
fitZ

 

[knightfly]

Staggered stud walls are considered by building codes to be the same as if the studs weren't staggered, as far as strength is concerned - they are normally set up with the studs on each edge of the wider base and cap boards to be 24" on center, with the studs on the opposite edge of the base and cap OFFSET by 12" - this way, each side of the wall has 24" centers so wallboard matches up.

ONly thing about Fitz's comments I would change is about insulation - it's easier and better to use 24" wide batts, standard R-13 (some of the "sound rated" or R15 stuff is slightly denser, this is better for sound too) - instead of WEAVING the insulation between studs, you can run the batts vertical between stud cavities, treating EACH SIDE of the wall as its own wall - IOW, put a 22-1/2" batt between the studs on one side of the wall, and another batt between the studs on the opposite side - this gives a bit more compression of the insulation, double insulation in most areas, better damping of the drywall (helps cut the noise even more) and is easier to install. Just staple the paper backing to the studs as you go.

As long as both sides of the wall will be at or near the same temperature, the paper on both sides won't be a moisture problem from double vapor barriers... Steve

 

[Ibrow]

Thanks for the continued help!

24" studs eh? That should cut down on construction costs. I love your idea of just rolling the bats on each side. That cuts down on cutting a TON. I was picturing 16" studs, 8" offset, and having to cut every bat in half, over and over. Lots of work.

Now, I'm just going to mention this, for the heck of it. How about a pocket door? If I installed that as my door, would any of this even be worth it? Is there any way to lower the sound transmission through a pocket door?

I guess, the deal is this. A friend of mine is divorced and needs a place to stay, cheap, for a little while. I have a LONG family room in my basement, and am basically cutting it in half with the wall and building an impromtu bedroom. Eventually, my 3 year old son will take over the room as his bedroom. But, for the time being, I have my TV and Xbox etc. in the one half, and my pal's room in the other half. If I'm watching TV or whatever, and he's trying to sleep, I'd like as little sound as economically possible to get through. Likewise, If I go down there to watch TV and he's snuck a girl into his room somehow, I DON'T want to hear THAT. LOL!

So, given that what would you advise? Due to space constraints and aesthetics, and the wife, I am sold on only putting up one wall. If the door is going to piss away any STC advantages I may build in(double sheetrock, staggered studs, insulation) should I even bother? Or, specifically, what door would you suggest? Keep in mind, as I said earlier, the ceiling height is pretty low, so I'm going to have to cut the door down to fit. I am hoping to only use a 30" door or so.(WIDTHWISE )

Thanks SO MUCH for your help! I am learning quite a bit. All knowledge I will be able to parlay into acoustic improvement in my studio!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Ibrow. If it were me, with that criteria, I would scenario #2. Easy to build. No RC hassles. Pretty cut and dried. I WOULD however, leave the 1/4" perimeter gap @ floor, end walls, ceiling and door jambs, stuff a backer rod and caulk(resiliant butyl rubber maybe) and tape and mud. Even the studs at the endwalls. I would probably only fasten the top and bottom plate, and leave the endstuds with a gap for decoupling the wall. Nothing you can do about the plates. Maybe use a foam sill seal under the bottom plate. 8
Stagger joints in the layers of drywall and caulk the joints before taping(both layers). First layer run horizontal. Second layer I'd run vertical. Caulk at door jambs before trimming with casing. Don't use a pocket door. Use heavy duty hardwood jamb(may have to have custom milled because of wall thickness). Use solidcore door, with heavy duty hinges, good latchset, with quality threshold(wood) and quality weatherstripping seals. If your doing the door/jamb, tolerance the door gap for 1/16", and 4 degree bevel at latch edge. Oh, and the insulation. What Steve said. This should do what you need for these rooms. Of course, playing drums in one of the rooms will DEFINITLY transmit. But tv, radios, er......and."fooling around" it should do the trick. The real key is to stop airborn noise here. That means making the wall airtight. Even a 1/32 hole can negate this whole wall.
Oh, the disclaimer is still in force here.
fitZ

 

[Ibrow]

I WOULD however, leave the 1/4" perimeter gap @ floor, end walls, ceiling and door jambs, stuff a backer rod and caulk(resiliant butyl rubber maybe) and tape and mud

How would I do that? The 1/4" gap is just from the sheetrock to the ceiling/walls etc., correct? Then I fill that gap with the rubber caulk and corner tape over it? I'm trying to get everything sorted out before I actually do ANYTHING. LOL!

What kind of caulk would be best to adhere to sheetrock to fill up the 1/4" gap around? I will check HD for the caulk you suggested.

Thanks!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

How would I do that? The 1/4" gap is just from the sheetrock to the ceiling/walls etc., correct?

Yes, but personally, I would leave the END studs 1/4" shy from touching the walls that they die into. Someone may say not to, but that is how I would do it to keep the studs decoupled. The plates are fastened so the wall isn't going anywhere, and the drywall gives it shear resitance. Here is a detail. I'll post the rest tomorrow. Tired tonight.
fitZ

 

[Ibrow]

Wow.

So, I build the wall framing(studs etc.) to within 1/4" on each end of the wall. Then I stuff the backer rod in alongside the first layer of sheetrock, and put acoustical caulk into the 1/4" gap "over" the backer rod after I put on the second layer. That sound about right?

Does HD or Menards or any of those places sell a caulk labled "acoustical"? Where do I buy the backer rod? I don't put any of the rod between the stud and the other wall? Just an air gap that is sealed once the sheetrock layers are put on?

THANKS a LOT for the picture.

I went to HD today to look for doors. I think I'm in trouble. My carpeted floor to finished ceiling is 80 3/4". Will I be able to put a standard, say, 36x80 door in there? I want the door to swing out, and doing so, it will have to go under a different piece in order to "fully" swing out and go semi-flush with the wall. That opening is only 78 3/4". So, the top of the swinging door can only be a maximum of, say 78 1/2" carpet to top of door.

How should I go about this? I am thinking, being the wall isn't going to be "standard" width anyway, I should just make my own Jamb and buy a door and cut it to fit. I know I could rip a pre-hung door at the bottom, it is just ripping the jambs on either side that might be tough. Then again, that's what jigsaws are for, right?

You say solid core door. What does that mean? I saw a bunch of oak interior doors. All the exterior doors that I saw were metal. I can't very well cut a metal door. I am really trying to avoid custom ordering, as I kind of want to get this done(except the mudding of course) this weekend. I just want to get the wall in place and up so as to afford my friend some privacy. I can pretty it up next weekend.

Lastly, couldn't I make my own door? No frills or nothing, but wouldn't putting together, say, a couple 1/2" or 3/4" oak plywood sheets for a door work pretty well? It would stain up nice, that's for sure, but would it be worth it, sound-wise? It'd be a LOT less expensive to cut doors from 2 sheets of plywood than to buy an actual solid oak door. Since I'd be making a custom jamb, I could cut the door to exactly the size I need. Putting in the door handle could be a bit tricky though. Just a thought.

Thanks for all the help!!

 

[knightfly]

Only caulk you'll likely find at HD that's worth using for acoustics is GE Silicon II, at about $4.50 per 9 oz tube - you won't need several cases of it, but this is still nearly 3 TIMES the cost of the REAL stuff which, if you can find it locally at a drywall supply place (one example) costs about $4.50 for a 29 oz tube. Requires a different caulking gun, about $15 if your HD carries it. (The little cheapie home DIY ones are a couple bucks, the price difference would buy 3 more tubes of caulk; in your case, the GE stuff might make more sense...

Pocket door - not a good plan. Screws up Isolation to the point that you may as well just hang a blanket between the rooms, is hard to hang right, etc -

The type solid core exterior door Rick's talking about is getting harder to find, it's basically just a solid particle board slab with veneer ply on both sides - pricewise however, two sheets of 3/4 oak veneer ply would run you about $110 last I looked, and still no jamb or hinges. If you look at other building supply place you may find what you need - then you can just cut off the bottom, maybe move a hinge or two, and hang the door in your frame.

http://www.easy2diy.com/cm/easy/diy_ht_index.asp?page_id=35694582

http://doityourself.com/doors/installingdoorhinges.htm

http://www.millardlumber.com/HowTo/hinges/hinge.htm

http://www.hometips.com/content/hinged_intro.html

(Just in case you needed a primer on the subject :=))

Door bottom - biggest leak for sound. with carpet, you're kinda SCREWED because you need clearance for the door to open. Cheapest way to do this is leave the clearance you need for not rubbing on the carpet, then roll up a bath towel and "chink" the crack when you close the door. PITA, but it helps.

Better - cut a piece of 2x4 to fit between the uprights of the door jamb, buy a roll of self-stick foam weatherstripping, put strips of it at each edge on the bottom WIDE side of the 2x4 and 1-2 strips on the NARROW side, then use that against the bottom of the door instead of the towel. Still a PITA...

Better yet - Cut the carpet away from the door area, install a Zero International Door seal kit, about $260 from Acoustical Solutions

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/doors/seal_kits.asp

Cheaper, maybe OK, haven't tried this, just found it and asked for more info -

http://www.hardwaresource.com/Store_ViewProducts.asp?Cat=542&OrderID=

All the time I have for now, hope some of this helps... Steve

 

[Ibrow]

Thanks for the advice and links!

I went to Menards today and they have about everything I'll need. I found an exterior solid core door. It's oak veneered with, it looks like, particle board, solidly all the way through. It's not hung, so I have to make the jambs etc. myself, and I have to cut the hole for the doorknob. And I get to scrape away the edges for the hinges. What fun! LMAO! It should be no problem though to rip the door to a total height of 77 1/8" though. HD had NO such thing. I am planning on installing a 3 or 4 fin sweep at the bottom of the door and just have the fins drag across the carpet when being opened or closed. The fins are a pretty soft rubber, so they should flex back and forth quite easily without much wear on the carpet. I can still always put the towel down if need be.

Menards also has OSI Acoustical caulk in the BIG canisters. LOL! They also have 3/8" backing rod, and actually call it that right on the bag. Since I can actually get my hands on this stuff, I now have a couple of questions.

The only problem that I can really see arising is with the backing rod and caulk. When I get to my 2nd, outwardmost, sheetrock sheet, looking at the diagram, the only thing I will have between the sheetrock and the wall will be acoustical caulk. Do I just tape and mud that corner then? Isn't a 1/4" gap a bit wide to put corner tape over then mud? Just wondering before I start the project tomorrow.

Thanks for any replies. Friday night isn't usually the best night for help.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

The only problem that I can really see arising is with the backing rod and caulk. When I get to my 2nd, outwardmost, sheetrock sheet, looking at the diagram, the only thing I will have between the sheetrock and the wall will be acoustical caulk. Do I just tape and mud that corner then? Isn't a 1/4" gap a bit wide to put corner tape over then mud? Just wondering before I start the project tomorrow.

Hello Ibrow, the 3/8 rod will compress to 1/4". BTW, 1/4" is normal, but if you can hold 1/8" gaps, by all means do. Sometimes though, the wood is warped, the existing wall bowed or out of plumb, or mud is different thickness at different points on the wall, or there is a knot in the stud, or any number of things that you will be glad you left the 1/4" gap. And if you will read my 3 scenario notes, I state...TAPE and MUD. However, I also stated my disclaimer, as mudding MAY negate the iso joint. I was hoping Steve or some other expert would have commented on this. However, it was what I would do under these circumstances.
fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Ibrow, well good luck with your project and the door. BTW, here is a plan section like I would do it. Hope it helps. I've got a vertical section too. Got to go though. I'll post it tomorrow. And one with a threshold.
fitZ

 

[Ibrow]

Rick, that would have been very helpful! Thanks for the pic.

I have done almost that, but I've run into a design flaw, and I think I need some HELP!!! LOL!

It concerns the door. Like a moron, I measured a normal door, and also saw what they had at Menards, and most all of the interior pre-hungs have 1/2" jambs. So, that's what I engineered for. Unfortunately, 1/2" wood isn't very common, it's all 3/4" as in your drawing. There is special Jamb wood, usually plywood with a veneer, that comes in 1/2 or 9/16. I can try that. My jamb is going to be SOOOOO thick though, so I imagine I can put a couple of them together and cover the seam with the door stop and stripping as shown in your diagram.

That's not really a BIG problem. The BIG problem is the hinging. If I'm hanging a (roughly) 40lb solid core door, if I double sheetrock, how the hell do I get back to the stud?? Double Sheeting 5/8" will come out to 1 1/4". If the door is 1 5/8" or whatever, it looks like any hinge I will use will go through the 1/2" jamb and into the sheetrock. Even if my design was written up for 3/4" there, I doubt it would hold such a robust door without it hitting a stud behind it.

So, I'm kind of screwed. Unless, like, a 3" sheetrock screw will hold a pretty heavy weight going through 1/2" of wood and into 2 1/2" of sheetrock, sideways.

What to do, what to do. I know I'm not the first guy to install a heavy door in a double-sheetrocked wall. Are there special "extra-long" hinges I should be looking for? Or am I worried about nothing?

Lastly, what kind of stripping should I use on the doorstop? I love the drawing. Just wondering what kind of stripping is there. Rubber tube, or foam maybe? Thanks!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

The BIG problem is the hinging.f I'm hanging a (roughly) 40lb solid core door, if I double sheetrock, how the hell do I get back to the stud??

You don't HAVE to!! Hardwood will hold short screws. Thats the point of using hardwood.

Hello Ibrow. Well, you have discovered the "building before detailing" syndrome. Usually what I try to do is build NOTHING untill I have EVERYTHING. This guarantees elimination of "sourcing" vs planning error. I had to do this for 15 years at my last job. Building stuff you are not familiar with can be very frustrating in the first place. Add Murphy to it and......well, you know.
Ok, what you are running into is EXACTLY why I said you MAY have to have a custom HARDWOOD door jamb MILLED at a cabinet shop or door shop. However, there are things you can do. And sorry for not DRAWING the SCREWS for the hinges. People wonder why I go to this extent for what appears to be simple construction. Ha! My ass. Simple till you run into shit like this. Ok, for starters, HARDWOODS will hold LARGE DIAMETER SHORT SCREWS. Proper pilot holes sized to the screws is the key. Plus, do NOT use cheap hinges. Worst thing you can do. Bite the bullet and get HEAVY DUTY, Stainless steel 4" butt hinges. They are NOT cheap, but the deal is strength. Long term. PLUS, they have 4 screw holes per leaf, not 3 like cheap ones. Another thing is ACCURATE mortising of the hinges into the door. IF your jamb is properly fastened to the studs, then hinges fastened to a HARDWOOD jamb will hold. Another key to success here is tight but true and plumb fastening of the jamb. You will need some shimstock though. Usually a few cedar shingles is whats needed. If you are not familiar with hanging a door, especially a heavy duty solid core, look up on the net for some tips or instructions.

As to the jamb itself, what did you do? Build a rough opening for 1/2" thick jambs plus 1/4" clearance? If so, this is what I would do. FORGET 1/2" jambs.
They are NOT heavy enough, nor is regular ole fingerjointed pine jambs or ply good enough. Crap. If you want your projects to come out GREAT, then use GREAT materials, PERIOD. Cut corners results in crappy results, usually. So, here is my suggestions. Either REFRAME your opening for correct 3/4" jambstock, OR RIP the door width by 1/2". Those are your options. What kind of door do you have? Oak or birch veneer over particle bd core? Match the jamb species to it if its OAK. You can use Alder to match a Birch door, and stain to taste. If its Mahogany, then use solid Mahogany. Period. You won't be sorry.
If you DO plan to build your own hardwood jambs, let me know your skill level. If need be I can give you some millwork tips. I can't do it toight, but I'll be back tomorrow.
Anyway, tell me exactly where you are at with this and I'll try and guide you through some things you don't understand, MAYBE.
Cheers
fitZ

 

[Ibrow]

THANKS for the help!

I have an opening that is roughly 33 1/4". I was planning on putting a 32" door in there. Just like you said, solid core, oak veneer over particle, I believe.

I haven't bought anything, doorwise, yet. I only have the wall built and insulated. I haven't put any sheetrock on yet either. I suppose I could go down to a 30" door. Or as you said, just rip a 1/2 inch, if you think that would work better.

Then I could get some 1x8" OAK for the jambs. So, the thick screws will hold into 3/4" oak? That is good to know. If I do rip the 1/2" off the door, I have read that putting masking tap on both sides and ripping through it will minimize splintering. Does that sound about right?

THANKS again for all the help!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Man, your fast. You musta jumped right on this project.
Well, I don't have much time this morning. MONDAYS I have 3 projects to finish myself today. I'm building a HIGHEND doghouse, deck and chainlink fence , finish putting the drawerfronts on some drawers, and delivering 5 louvered doors and jambs I just lacquered. Still have to install them too. Busy day.
Ok, well, as to the door width, I'd probably rip down a 32". Since you have to cut the height anyway. And BTW, DO NOT cut the door HEIGHT untill you have the jamb installed. Actually, there is a sequence to guarantee you don't undercut.
And yes, use some masking tape on BOTH faces. Actually, if you have to use a skill saw, clamp up a guide, like a board or something. Usually, if I HAVE to use a skill saw, I will rip it about a 1/16th oversize and then finish the cut with a router. But it takes a 2" flushcutter to do it. Most of the time though, I'll rip on a table saw and then push the door through a jointer.
As to the jambs, have you ever mounted hinges on doors and jambs? It's tricky getting 1/16"th gap. And even trickyer flushing the mortize on the butt hinges. Let me know if you need some help on mounting these hinges. There is a few things I do to GUARANTEE success. One thing is DO NOT cut the side jambs to length untill AFTER you have the hinges mounted to door and jamb. Leave them long at BOTH ends. After you have the hinges all mounted, then you mark the jamb for HEIGHT only. But I'm outa time right now, so I'll be back. Remember, purchase you jambs OVERSIZE in width. You will precision rip them later. Gotta go now.
fitZ

 

[Ibrow]

This will be my first door-mounting of any kind. You are correct in thinking that I am a bit leery of working with the chisel to chisel out the hinges on the jamb and the door. It really seems like a LOT of work to do it right, and any insight is GREATLY appreciated.

I have a table saw, so ripping the 1/2" should be no problem. I don't know what a jointer is though.

Thanks again for all the help!