Building a custom fretless bass

  • Thread starter Thread starter metalhead28
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Milnoque said:
You may have fun looking at the Wishbass Website

http://wishbass.com/pages/943108/index.htm

Steve is an original there are some fun designs in his galleries.

I like your design. It's attractive and it should balance well.

It's been my experience that fat neck profiles are more comfortable than modern thinner ones. They cause less cramping and fatigue, but they take some getting used to. They also have better sustain. I say this because you can always remove more wood if you find its not to your taste.

Be advised that fretless fingerboards are even less forgiving about surfacing that fretted ones. Be very anal about getting it perfect. A long radius block would be a good investment.

You might also consider dual truss rods ala Rickenbacker.
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I have stumbled upon the Wishbass site before, those are definitely some original designs, and cheap! Cool stuff.

Concerning the fingerboard, I've got the option to cut any of this stuff on a CNC mill at work. I was thinking that if I did a compound radius I might cut the fingerboard that way...I'm just not sure yet if that's what I want. If I do a uniform radius I'll just make myself a huge radius sanding block! :)
I will definitely not be shaving that neck down very thin. I prefer a fatter neck these days anyway.
 
Not sure if it's been mentioned before...

I recently build a 35" 5'ver, and LOVE the thing. The extra inch really makes a difference in playability and tone. You get extra tension on the string for the same note, and it really tightens up the ound from the low B. It really helps with detuning too. I used to hate dropping pitch on my 34" 5 strings because everything gets so "sloppy". The extra scale definitely helps, and it's not THAT big of a difference in playability.

IMHO...

Also... I recommend looking into either an Oil finish or a Nitro based finish. Stay away from the Poly stuff if you can. The Oil really allows the "wood" to come through in the tone, and you'll be amazed as the additional sustain.

Looks like a fun project.
 
eyeteeth said:
Not sure if it's been mentioned before...

I recently build a 35" 5'ver, and LOVE the thing. The extra inch really makes a difference in playability and tone. You get extra tension on the string for the same note, and it really tightens up the ound from the low B. It really helps with detuning too. I used to hate dropping pitch on my 34" 5 strings because everything gets so "sloppy". The extra scale definitely helps, and it's not THAT big of a difference in playability.

IMHO...

Also... I recommend looking into either an Oil finish or a Nitro based finish. Stay away from the Poly stuff if you can. The Oil really allows the "wood" to come through in the tone, and you'll be amazed as the additional sustain.

Looks like a fun project.
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The extra string length is correct.

Stay away from nitro unless you have the equipment and expertise to use it safely. Realy unless you intend to do quite a few instruments the potential risk to health and the regulations regarding its spaying are not worth the effort.

Can you explain how a soft non elastic finish increases sustain?

For a natural finish like the oil finishes sold in hardware stores today nearly everyone in the trade uses Danish oil, tung oil, or something similar. They all have a polymer base to allow you to build a protective finish. It's usually a polyurethane of some sort. For a harder lacquer finish I would recommend one of the many excellent purpose made waterborne finishes supplied by either stew mac or LMI. Good high gloss finishes can be had with other off the shelf options but they are not cheaper.
 
I gotta agree with Muttley on the finish. I have used LMIIs KTM-9 recently and can vouch for it. I believe it to be comparable to nitro as an instrument finish. Big words I know, but I'm not a beginner. Alot of high end builders are going to low VOM finishes and not because they're afraid of nitrocellulose.

I have no doubt that the stew-mac stuff is terrific as well.

This is a recording forum and I wish someone who visits here would put some of these assumptions to the test. If you're going to refinish your guitar please post before and after recordings and tell us what you used. I would be very interested in the results.
 
Okay, you guys have just about convinced me to go to a 35". I'm sure I won't do 36 though.

I plan on putting active electronics in there - and I don't honestly think the finish on the body, or even the body wood is going to effect the tone very much. I may be wrong. However, I may end up with just an oil finish, I'll decide once I get to that point I suppose. :D

Okay. Talk to me about pickups. The bass I'm used to has active humbuckers. I like the sound pretty well, but it's a fretted bass. The fretless bass I own now has a single passive soapbar pickup. It's a little bland, and I'm not sure how much more I might like an active soapbar pair.
I want this bass to have a fat ass thump in the lower registers, and I want the growl and really pronounced "mwah" sound in the mid and upper registers...but no harshness. What sort of pickups do I want? Should I stick to humbuckers?
 
Metalhead28, what a cool project. Good luck on it and keep us posted on the progress. :)
 
Muttley...

Many builders and luthiers before me have sworn Oil first, Nitro based second. I've thus far done one of each. While I haven't refinished one of my Poly guitars yet, I feel the two others I've done with similar pickups and electronics definitely support the luthiers opinions. The idea, is the Poly based is basically a plastic, which doesn't allow the wood to breath. Being more solid, it is not as conducive to vibration, which dampens the resonance of the instrument. The "major" builders use it because it is cheaper, more durable, and quicker to apply. True Gibsons are still Nitro, and most Luthiers I know will still use Nitro over a Poly.

The Nitro finished bass I made entirely with Rattle cans, and finishing supplies from my local auto parts store. Even with the mistakes I made, the finish beats anything I've seen hanging on a wall for twice the price.

Photos:
HPIM0051-vi.jpg

HPIM0053-vi.jpg

HPIM0054-vi.jpg


For an Oil base, Danish, Tung Oil are soft, and can nick or wear easily. Many guys are using Tru-Oil as it is a hard finish and will be more durable.

I used Tung-Oil on mine. Although in hindsight, I think I should have tried the Tru Oil.

Photo:
IMG_5558-vi.jpg


In either case, the key is wood preperation, and patience. You can still Nitro based products at Home Depot, Lowes, Menards... Deft, Watco... Get your self a Mask, and spray outside on comfortable, dry, non-windy days.

My experience with both is it DOES make a difference, and yes, I would go that route again without even thinking about it.

Read up, and draw your own conclusions. We're just a couple of faceless names on the internet.

These guys have a forum, and all the information and supplies you'll need.
www.reranch.com
albeit, they are pro-nitro.

Also, check out www.uglybassplayer.com They're a couple luthiers and builders on there that are more than happy to share info in a friendly manner.

Have fun with it!

(Hmmm.... I need to figure out how to insert an image in this forum.)
 
eyeteeth said:
(Hmmm.... I need to figure out how to insert an image in this forum.)
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If you attach one image per post, the image will show up within the post rather than as a link.
 
eyeteeth said:
Muttley...

Many builders and luthiers before me have sworn Oil first, Nitro based second. I've thus far done one of each.
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Not sure what you mean here but if you mean that oil based above nitro for sustain I'm afraid that just isn't the case. Neither myself or any of my fellow luthiers would make such a statement.
If it was quantifiable most would come down on the side of Nitro as it is stiffer and has less damping than a soft oil finish. However there is no research or figures to back up either. What is known is that the stiffer the finish the less it will absorb any vibration. There is so much else going on with the acoustics of an instrument that is impossible to make an assessment of how much more or less sustain between the two.

The idea, is the Poly based is basically a plastic, which doesn't allow the wood to breath. Being more solid, it is not as conducive to vibration, which dampens the resonance of the instrument.The idea, is the Poly based is basically a plastic, which doesn't allow the wood to breath. Being more solid, it is not as conducive to vibration, which dampens the resonance of the instrument.
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As opposed to what? Both Nitro and Poly (by which I assume you mean polyester) are acoustically proven good finishes. Oil finishes have a greater damping effect than either polyester or Nitrocellulose. I'll admit typically oil finished instruments have less finish on them by their design. None of these finishes when applied will allow the wood to breath any more than the other whatever wood breathing is.

The "major" builders use it because it is cheaper, more durable, and quicker to apply. True Gibsons are still Nitro, and most Luthiers I know will still use Nitro over a Poly.
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It is not cheaper it is a good deal more expensive and requires as much specific equipment and safety considerations as Nitro. I also use Nitrocellulose above polyester because it gives a better finish and is acoustically superior in my opinion. It is easier to apply and finish. Polyester is the " toffee apple" finish to beat all. Polyester is also very hard to touch in, nearly impossible to strip and is used by the BIG producers because they cannot control the quality of more suitable finishes. No other reason. If they could consistently use Nitro on all their instruments they would. Polyester you can lay up in a day as thick as you want, put it under lights and cut it back flat the next day and burnish it out in one hit. You simply can't do that with Nitro. It has a place in the guitar world these days because so many Far Eastern shops adopted it in the seventies.

For an Oil base, Danish, Tung Oil are soft, and can nick or wear easily. Many guys are using Tru-Oil as it is a hard finish and will be more durable.
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Rubbish, they are equal in nearly all respects. All have a polyurethane solid content designed to build. Between brands there is a slight difference but not enough to make a statement like that. You would have found no difference had you used tung, tru , danish, walnut etc.

In either case, the key is wood preperation, and patience. You can still Nitro based products at Home Depot, Lowes, Menards... Deft, Watco... Get your self a Mask, and spray outside on comfortable, dry, non-windy days.
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My thoughts and advice on this site regarding this are possibly now legend. Just dont do it guys. You'll get better results using a formulated waterborne finish as I and other people have recommended than you will using a rattle can nitro that bears no similarity to the nitro used by the pro's. You also run the risk of harming yourself, neighbors and environment in the process. For more just search nitrocellulose here.

Preparation is the key whatever you choose to finish with. So that is good advice.

My experience with both is it DOES make a difference, and yes, I would go that route again without even thinking about it.
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Both what, do you mean oil and nitro? Because if you are making a judgment about that after a few instruments off the bench I'm afraid you have to think some more about it. You also need to understand how materials effect the sound of your instruments. You simply cannot pin down the sound to the finish based on the experience of a few similar instruments. Thirty odd years and I'm still drawing conclusions. Go figure..

These guys have a forum, and all the information and supplies you'll need.
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They are pro nitro because that is what they sell. I'll say no more.

Also, check out www.uglybassplayer.com They're a couple luthiers and builders on there that are more than happy to share info in a friendly manner.
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There are few here as well ;)

Nice looking instruments by the way. Good work.
 
Okay. Talk to me about pickups. The bass I'm used to has active humbuckers. I like the sound pretty well, but it's a fretted bass. The fretless bass I own now has a single passive soapbar pickup. It's a little bland, and I'm not sure how much more I might like an active soapbar pair.
I want this bass to have a fat ass thump in the lower registers, and I want the growl and really pronounced "mwah" sound in the mid and upper registers...but no harshness. What sort of pickups do I want? Should I stick to humbuckers?
Click to expand...

Any feedback on this?
 
Muttly, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. There's manufacturer sites out there that admit to the difference in finishes while downplaying it to sell their products. Same with the oils. I believe there is a difference and know of one manufacturer that won't warranty their necks if it's not a laquer or Tru-oil based finish.

Metelhead,

Either way... End result... Take time with the process, and you'll have something far better than anything you can buy off the wall. In fit, finish, and sound.

As for p-ups... don't know what to tell ya on the fretless. I've always been partial to Active EMG's. I have Bart's in one of my basses and just don't like 'em. They make a In one switchable soapbar. In one position its single coil, in the other position it's humbucking. Mine is installed in a fretted bass, but it has a growl and some punch to it that I would probably dig it on a fretless. Their Ceramic based magnets have a little more low end to them than the standard. But a lot of people love the Barts.C and try basses with diffent pick-ups... use your ear.

Enjoy.
 
eyeteeth said:
Muttly, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. There's manufacturer sites out there that admit to the difference in finishes while downplaying it to sell their products. Same with the oils. I believe there is a difference and know of one manufacturer that won't warranty their necks if it's not a laquer or Tru-oil based finish.
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I've said this before as well but your not disagreeing with me your disagreeing with physics. Firstly the finish whatever you use is going to have a far less significant effect on the sound than you might think. There is so much else going on with the acoustics of an instrument. I would challenge anyone to prove a discernible increase in sustain as a result of using oil over a polymer based finish. Which is your claim. If it were discernible it would be the other way round. All this is more true with bass and solid bodies than acoustics. I'm more inclined to trust my years of experience and basic physics than I am the sales pitch of any manufacturer in any case

The fact that Warmoth choose not to honor a warranty on an oil based finish if applied by a third party is really irrelevant isn't it?

Honestly, I've finished hundreds if not thousands of instruments and the finish needs to comply to three things. First, it has to provide adequate protection to stop environmental changes damaging the instrument. It has to be of a type and applied in such a way as to minimise any damaging effects to the instruments tone. Third it has to be cosmetically appealing. The amount of any finish required to effect the sustain would be huge.
 
my buddy has a Fender Jazz bass that is fretted halfway up the neck and the rest is fretless.
 
which half of the neck has the frets on it? the side toward the body or the headstock?
 
up means higher in pitch so I mean halfway up the neck from the nut to about the ninth fret is fretted and above that is fretless.
 
zed32 said:
sorry for being a retard.
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understandable, I do believe when the neck is being referred to though up is towards the headstock. I always equate up with higher pitchwise so I am alllwwayys backwards.
 
makes sense though, because if the frets were only on the higher notes, then you'd probably get buzzes when you play the fretless part.
 
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