budget drum set recording

[classicrocker41]

hey guys,

im goin home for thanksgiving week, and my band wants to re-record some of our stuff.

I do all the tracking, mixing and mastering (mainly for experience cuz i love this stuff ) myself, and i was wondering if you guys could share with me some tips, tricks, techniques, whatever you're willing to share basically, on how you would approach recording a typical drum set with the following equipment available to you:

Mics:

(1) MXL V57M (yes, i said 57) large-diaphragm condenser
(1) Shure SM57
(2) Superlux small diaphragm condensers

Interface:
- E-MU 0404 USB

Analog Mixer:
- Behringer Xenyx 2442FX

Sequencer:
- Sonar Producer Edition 6

What i did last time was basically the "recorderman" method with 3 microphones, except i used my extra Superlux to mic specifically the ride cymbal. I sent the sound through the analog mixer, mixed the drums, and then sent the audio out thru master left & right into the two XLR mic inputs on the E-MU 0404 interface.

oh yeah, these are going to be recorded in a fairly big room in a basement with high ceilings and hardwood flooring.

It gave me okay results, but this time around i'm lookin' for something more, and because of time restraints i unfortunately dont have time to experiment different mic positions.

Any help would be awesome.

Thanks,

_chris

 

[Lo-Fi Mike]

Mic placment

Mics:

(1) MXL V57M (yes, i said 57) large-diaphragm condenser
(1) Shure SM57
(2) Superlux small diaphragm condensers

_chris

given the gear and the environment, i would first set up the small diaphragm condensers as OH and mix them as if you were only going to use those two mics, make sure the stereo image sounds good and the kick is coming in at the same level on each of the overhead mics.

Then set the 57 on the snare to capture a direct sound recording, since the overheads are set to pick up the whole kit. The 57 is there to add and blend in snare reverb, and to mix in a more snare as needed.

Then i would put the V57M a few feet away from the kick to capture the sound of the whole kit (room mic), but at the same time grabbing the most low end (from the kick). then you can eq and mix in the v57m as punch is needed.

this is just my 2cent, some may agree, and some may say "why in the world would you do that"
---mike---

 

[classicrocker41]

haha very interesting.....i can see why people would be skeptical, but i'll definitely give it a try.

i forgot to add that we are a hard rock band....so the drums are usually hard, in your face and driving.

keep it comin!

_chris

 

[omtayslick]

I would suggest the same set up as Mr. Lo-Fi Mike, except that you may want to experiment with micing the underside of the snare with the SM57.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'd also agree with the SDCs as balanced stereo OHs. Where I'd personally try varying it a bit, though, would be to use the remaining mics as close spot mics; leave the full kit to the OHs. Then use the other two mics to close mic the snare and the kick respectively.

The classic textbook 101 answer would be to use the SM57 on snare (top or bottom depends upon the snare tone you favor, but if it's bottom, don't forget to flip the polarity on that track), but I'm not sure of how the MXL is on the low end, I've not used one before. So I'd recommend that you be open to taking 10 minutes to test that.

It'd then be up to you to decide based upon the drummer's style, the musical content, and your own personal taste how you want to tune the snare-to-kick balance on the kit, and therefore whether you use the Shure on the snare and the MXL on the kick, or vice versa.

G.

 

[jaybriggs84]

What the first guy said is a good way to do it. With a condenser on the kick, you don't want it up by the sound hole. Have the drummer play the kick and feel with your hand where the shockwave of the kick dies down and place your mic there. If I was mixing it, I would probably Low pass all the highs out from 5 or 6 K(usually around there, for hard rock it's good to keep some of those upper-mids to get that kick click) that will get some of the cymbals and hats out of the mix. Dip out around 400 hertz on the kick track too, it's a pretty unflattering frequncy for kick drums. As for the snare track, you can also try miking the shell of the drum if miking just the top seems a little bare, you'll hear a big difference where you mike the snare. Try an XY setup for overheads, you'll have less phase issues.

 

[classicrocker41]

hey thanks everyone for the great suggestions! i'll try as many of these ideas out as time permits.

_chris

 

[Lo-Fi Mike]

close mic?

I'd also agree with the SDCs as balanced stereo OHs. Where I'd personally try varying it a bit, though, would be to use the remaining mics as close spot mics; leave the full kit to the OHs. Then use the other two mics to close mic the snare and the kick respectively.


G.

would you really close mic a kick with a large diaphragm condenser?
what about that large puff of air smacking the capsule?
I'm not saying it couldn't or hasn't been done, but wouldn't there be some precaution? like maybe tilting it a little.
i would just have to pull back at least 8in-1ft

---mike---

 

[mrface2112]

you need room treatment. you can't record what's not there. the drums have to sound good in the room in the first place.

second, take the time to place the drums. walk around the room smacking the snare and put it right where it sounds best.

then, take the time to place the mics. maybe instead of close-miking, walk around the room while the drummer plays. when you find somewhere that sounds good, put some mics there. i'd still put a close mic on the kick and snare, but maybe a room pair will work better than overheads.

if you can't do any of that, then buy yourself some triggers and run samples in to the recorder. this might be more consistent with that modern hard rock drum sound anyway.


cheers,
wade

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

would you really close mic a kick with a large diaphragm condenser?
what about that large puff of air smacking the capsule?
I'm not saying it couldn't or hasn't been done, but wouldn't there be some precaution? like maybe tilting it a little.
i would just have to pull back at least 8in-1ft

One should always be aware of the physical capabilities of their mic and plan accordingly, of course.

But nowdays there are LDCs available that can handle higher SPLs and transients than some dynamics, often as much as 135dB SPL. I don't know about that particular model of MXL, so I can't speak to that one specifically, but the generalization that all LDCs are too fragile for such work throws a lot of potentially good babies out with that bathwater.

It also assumes that one is automatically going to mount the LDC directly in front of the soundhole. Another geenralization that is not always true. What if there is no soundhole, or no front skin at all, or the mic is mounted inside the drum? In each of these cases the transient air pressure would just not be the imperative issue that it would be with a soundhole mounting.

Of course if you're worried about that or the MXL just doesn't otherwise work well that way, there is always the second option I mentioned; put the MXL on the snare and the Shure on the kick. Again, not what the 101 textbook says, which pretty much automatically throws SM57s on the snares. But as I said, it depends upon several other variables. I've used AT LDCs on snares in the past with very nice results. If the OP wants to key on the snare sound as priority over the kick, and gets great results with the MXL on the snare, then that would be a valid option.

The main reason I selected those options - and they are not the only ones - was that I assumed that a) he'd want a pretty present and isolated kick track to be able jockey into the mix; hard to do with room mics, b) the average home rec'r home from school for Thanksgiving is probably not going to have that great of a live room to work in, and c) that as he said the amount of setup time he has to work with is small.

I agree with face that he should take the time to get an optimal setup with what he has to work with, but all things considered, I'd gamble that under the time and space constraints he will have to get the kind of tracks he will be looking for with that kind of music that he'll wind up wanting to get the snare and kick up close.

That's just one analysis/option/opinion. I have yet to read anything in this thread that I actually disagree with, it's all good advice.

G.

 

[Lo-Fi Mike]

great response!!

the next time i mic up drums I'm gonna try an LCD on the snare.
Thanks for the idea Glen.

i do like a cracking snare sound, and with the SM57 i always have to boost the hi's to get what i like.

 

[classicrocker41]

u guys are awesome...can't wait to try some of these out!!

_chris

 

[mrface2112]

the next time i mic up drums I'm gonna try an LCD on the snare.
Thanks for the idea Glen.

i do like a cracking snare sound, and with the SM57 i always have to boost the hi's to get what i like.

i like an LCD on snare too, but my concerns with using one there are its size and the relative fragility (compared to something like an sm57). one errant stick (or stick fragment) and kiss it good bye. i prefer to use an LDC aimed at the shell of the snare from a few (6?) inches out (read: out of harm's way)--there's often good crack at the shell. usually i'll employ a SDC taped to the 57 so that the grills are perfectly aligned--that keeps me from having to dial in a load of highs on the 57.

i like the mxl v67 as an overhead--there's something in that mic's sound that lends itself to a nice woody crack. it also helps tame bad sounding cymbals.

and too, sometimes the best snare sound in the room is far away from the snare itself.....

cheers,
wade

 

[mrface2112]

would you really close mic a kick with a large diaphragm condenser?

absolutely! i do it all the time with my V77--it sounds excellent right next to the resonant kick head. i usually have it maybe 4 inches out. just keep it away from the hole and you should be fine. you might need a pad, though. the U47 FET is a world-renowned "front of kick" mic. i'm looking at trying my soon to be arriving mxl 960 there too.

more often than not, i'll devote 3 mics (and 3 channels) to the kick. i'll have the V77 outside, an EV RE38 inside the hole, pointing towards the shell of the kick and a senn 609 (sitting inside) almost touching the skin directly opposite the beater's striking spot.

this gives me 3 distinct sounds to work with--the V77 gives the resonant boom and a lot of the drum's tone, the RE38 gives a very "classic" well-rounded kick sound and the 609 gives a whole lot of beater slap (and not much else). i'd much rather blend in other mic sources/textures to get what i'm looking for than using eq. if i don't have the channels, i'll blend them all at the board and bus them to one input.


cheers,
wade

 

[Lo-Fi Mike]

Awesome

more often than not, i'll devote 3 mics (and 3 channels) to the kick. i'll have the V77 outside, an EV RE38 inside the hole, pointing towards the shell of the kick and a senn 609 (sitting inside) almost touching the skin directly opposite the beater's striking spot.


cheers,
wade

OK, now you've got my attention!!
that sounds awesome, but talk to me about phasing issues, are there any with 3mics on one source?
Break it all down for me, i think i might go out and buy a few mics just to try this out.

---mike---

 

[classicrocker41]

hey guys,

As of now, by just reading the replies, i think i am going to experiment with Lo-Fi Mike & Southside Glen's suggestions first, and consider jaybriggs suggestions about EQing...they sound the most promising for my situation.

thanks again for all the feedback, i'll let you know what miking approach i chose in about a week or so when i get back to school.

_chris

 

[mrface2112]

OK, now you've got my attention!!
that sounds awesome, but talk to me about phasing issues, are there any with 3mics on one source?
Break it all down for me, i think i might go out and buy a few mics just to try this out.

technically speaking, yes, you will get some comb filtering happening with 3 mics on the kick due to the different "arrival times" of the sound to the 3 mics. but this is where good placement techniques come into play. just b/c there's comb filtering doesn't necessarily mean it's *bad* comb filtering.

just get the mics positioned where they support each other (rather than detract). make sure to sum them all to mono (either the mono button on the console or pan them all center) and make sure they sound good.

i start with the "main" mic (the RE38) and add in the others, listening as i go. if something sounds screwy, i move it til it doesn't sound screwy. i've done it enough that i have some usual "starting spots" that i've developed and typically go from there.

to be honest, i don't care if there's a little bit of "phase issues" AS LONG AS IT SOUNDS GOOD.

the same goes for using a few mics on an amp, etc. the key really, is to use your ears. hate to sound so "basic", but it seems people are interested more in 3:1 rules, lining things up in the DAW, IBP phase alignment tools and all that these days......when it's really quite simple--move the mic til it sounds good.


cheers,
wade