Broadcast level?

[Digidude824]

Always have been little confused on how to achieve the same loudness of a commercial CD. I know of the tools involved in doing so, but where my problem lies is how much is too much, when do you know to stop maximizing/compressing/raising levels bla bla bla?

Here is my example:
Im mixing some R&B for some dude.......it sounds cool and now its time to bring it up a notch to that same output level that other commercial cd's are at. The mix doesn't clip and it sounds good from my monitors. When I bounce to disc (im using PT's) burn a CD and then listen to it on other systems its either not as loud or distorted like a mo fo. So I guess how do you know where the monitor output should be relative to what is actually being outputed??? If these were proper, then my monitors would have sounded like what the other systems do on the CD....right?..........ga help me lol

 

[masteringhouse]

I believe what you're referring to is RMS level (as opposed to peak level). There are several ways of doing this, my general approach is to use different "staged" compressors. The following isn't a "formula" it depends on what a mix needs, but I'll take a worst case scenario to demonstrate all.

The first compressor is a multi-band compressor in order to even out any frequency bands that are popping out or not sounding natural. This could be due to sibilance, a bloaty or inconsistent bottom, or a mid that doesn't quit "stand out". I feel that it's important to take care of any EQ adjustments first so that the next compressors in the chain aren't as influenced by say too much bass or kick controlling the average level of the program.

Next I use one or 2 averaging compressors. One is analog to get a bit of a simulated tape saturation effect to a mix suffering from digititis, the next is a Weiss DS1 in order to make the overall program level louder.

The last "compressor" in the chain is a limiter to remove transients that aren't within the normal range of the material (usually due to a kick or snare hit).

Hope this helps ...

 

[TexRoadkill]

Here is my example:
Im mixing some R&B for some dude.......it sounds cool and now its time to bring it up a notch to that same output level that other commercial cd's are at. The mix doesn't clip and it sounds good from my monitors. When I bounce to disc (im using PT's) burn a CD and then listen to it on other systems its either not as loud or distorted like a mo fo. So I guess how do you know where the monitor output should be relative to what is actually being outputed??? If these were proper, then my monitors would have sounded like what the other systems do on the CD....right?..........ga help me lol

It sounds like you're not actually using the limiter when you do your bounce to disc. You might try just mixing down at a regular level than apply limiting during the mastering stage. That is how it is normally done.

 

[Digidude824]

I ususly do it the way you described. I played around with all this last night till 2 am and I "somehow" got it to come out loud and not over compressed, thing is I only tested out a part of the song, being the loudest part to make sure it didn't clip. So I saved my changes and was going to do the same to the entire track in the morning. Now no matter what I do its not comming out the freeking same......its a lot lower than the test i did late last night, and I followed all the same steps.

Im using PPM V/U meters to help out, which they did and I would say that the average is sitting around -3db in the louder sections, but last night I somehow was able to get it closer to 0db (like how Katz's Mastering article described).....and when I compare the two after bouncing and burning a CD I can tell the difference.......its not super drastic but it's enough to make my client wish I could pull more out of it. I appreciate all your input so far..........maybe using hardware instead of software for this purpose will produce better results?

 

[Digidude824]

I think what is happening is that Im pushing the digital realm as far as it's going to go.........I need analog gear to get that extra 3db or so.......other than that thanks for your help dudes.

 

[AndrewYap]

Since this topic is already here, I guess I'll post here... Go easy on me cause I'm new...

I'm using onboard audio on my Dell which presumably, from what I've read, records at a semi-pro level of -10 dB. The volumes of the mixes I've made are very very obviously too low compared to commercial cd's. The question is, with the soundcard limitation, is it possible to compress the mix all the way to commercial levels?

Thanks!

 

[masteringhouse]

Since this topic is already here, I guess I'll post here... Go easy on me cause I'm new...

I'm using onboard audio on my Dell which presumably, from what I've read, records at a semi-pro level of -10 dB. The volumes of the mixes I've made are very very obviously too low compared to commercial cd's. The question is, with the soundcard limitation, is it possible to compress the mix all the way to commercial levels?

Thanks!

-10 dB is a reference level for your card, it does not mean that you can only record to -10 db.

Yes, you can make your mixes as loud (or louder) than commercial CD's. It requires careful control of gain vs. noise and distortion.

In the digital world you cannot go above 0dbfs. Often times peaks will hit 0 dbfs way before the average level of the material gets anywhere near this. The perceived volume of a CD is based more on the average level than the peak level, as a result the real “trick” to getting CDs to sound louder is by increasing the RMS (average) level.

This is done by controlling the peaks through a peak limiter, and controlling the average level through an alternate type of compressor. Some compressors have settings to balance both of these, but it is often a compromise on using the technique I described in the post above.

 

[masteringhouse]

I think what is happening is that Im pushing the digital realm as far as it's going to go.........I need analog gear to get that extra 3db or so.......other than that thanks for your help dudes.

You are confused about the analog use of db vs. the digital use of db.

See http://www.jimprice.com/prosound/db.htm

and

http://www.softimage.com/community/xsi/discuss/Archives/ds.archive.0204/msg01348.htm

for some definitions in particular dBFS vs dBu.

You will not get an "extra" 3db from analog gear. You will simply be using a different reference to measure the db level that you currently have. Often times people will use the following for reference between the digital and analog domain:

0dBu = -18dBFS

 

[Track Rat]

Mr Masteringhouse is giving you the straight scoop.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Often times people will use the following for reference between the digital and analog domain:

0dBu = -18dBFS

Except on Alesis gear (ADATs, HD24, and Masterlink) where 0dBu = -15dBFS

 

[masteringhouse]

Except on Alesis gear (ADATs, HD24, and Masterlink) where 0dBu = -15dBFS

Everyone varies to some degree. I've seen some CDs go as high as -10 to -6. Bob Katz' Metering system uses -20, -14, and -12 as references.

See:
http://www.mhlabs.com/update/f17_Release_Notes.html

for more info on the K-System.

To configure a Pro Tools system see:

http://www.digidesign.com/support/docs/192_IO_Calibration_Mode.pdf

 

[Son of Mixerman]

I second Toms comment on everything being different.

It certainly would have made sense for some sort of standard but that didn't happen. I think for alot of the all in one boxes that newer newbies have access to are internally compensated to load the converters without having to think too much. People who started in analog in the early days and migrated towards digital had to work out the gain staging details through experimentation.
Don't let the differences between -10 and +4 get you confused between semi-pro and pro, or the usage of balanced and unbalanced as being pro or semi pro.
I always make sure I have a set of tones set up to make sure Im talking the same language when crossing platforms.
Tones are a vital link in mixdown...

SoMm

 

[AndrewYap]

Question... Keep in mind that I'm doing this on PC...

Previously:
1. Compressed at track level
2. Compressed at mixdown level

Now:
1. Compressed at track level
2. Compressed at mixdown level
3. Limiter at mixdown level

The only difference I can hear is that I managed to make the bass guitar sound really sonically inconsistent. I didn't get anything to be louder.

There are 3 levels to deal with right now. Main volume at mixer, output gain on compressor and output gain on limiter. Which should I be playing with? I'm confused!!! Help!!! This is too much for a newbie...

Thanks a million for the answers you guys...

 

[Digidude824]

I have just pushed the limits of working with digital. Im not going to be able to get that little extra output staying pure digital.........I figure I need to use some outboard analog equipment (opinions are welcome please) or just give my mix to an actual ME.

 

[masteringhouse]

I have just pushed the limits of working with digital. Im not going to be able to get that little extra output staying pure digital.........I figure I need to use some outboard analog equipment (opinions are welcome please) or just give my mix to an actual ME.

Digital vs analog is not the issue. Actually you should be able to make volume levels louder with digital than with analog due to features like "look-ahead" processing. Digital processing is one of the reasons why CDs are so much hotter now than they were in the past.

Let me know what you are using and maybe I can help further. Or if you would like me to try the treatment I described above, email me at info@masteringhouse.com for details.