Brand new reel to reel decks ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter cjacek
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cjacek said:
Finally, someone "gets" what I've been sayin' all along ... Ok, back to dumpster divin' .. wait ... is that ... er ...yup, I think I see a 3440 down there ... have to clear away the chicken bones first ... ah, there ya go .... eh ... have to go, guys .. :D ;)

chicken bones? You are being too polite. :)

come back tomorrow! we are just starting here ;)
 
some good humor here, for sure.

my point is that I see a lot of people just getting into recording in these forums, delusioned that analog will suit them better. I am not debating the differences of what sounds better, but that some 14 yr old home recordist (who btw will get bald and fat in 26 years!) thinks that recording into his 35 year old Teac casette deck will warm up his sound and do a better job than using something like his computer that they are apparently also using for the internet to read all this spewage. Then, they go and spend $400 on mattress foam and stick it up all over their walls in their bedroom. I feel sorry for these kids because they spend their hard earned money on what I call "junk" and only have the knowledge that using cue-tips is for cleaning out your ears. As a recording newbie, should you really be concerned with "wow and flutter", reserving edge tracks for kick drums and bass guitars, storing your tapes "tails out", spending another $75 for a head demagnatizer, etc? It appears they get "snared" by the medium and loose track of recording good music and how to even put a decent sound into a mic. But yet, they are further fooled thinking they are going the same route as G. Martin and the Beatles...or whoever...when they couldn't be more wrong.

use THIS thread as an example. It is hilerous, but sad at the same time.http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=185958

But, I also realize talking about this in the "analog" forum has its "pitfalls" too :)
 
mixmkr said:
As a recording newbie, should you really be concerned with "wow and flutter", reserving edge tracks for kick drums and bass guitars, storing your tapes "tails out", spending another $75 for a head demagnatizer, etc?

Yes. They got to start somewhere.
My son, currently 8 years old, will probably drive an automatic when he is 16 - but I will teach him to drive a stick shift first. Why? Because that is how I learned, and I think I am a better driver because of it.
The same could be said for the Tascam portastudio.
This is a great device to begin learning how recording works without investing much money.
To get the fundamentals down.


I agree they do need to have an appreciation for the fact that before the Beatles, the men behind the glass taking care of the recording equipment were scientists in lab coats, who did not appreciate the antics of musicians and never would let one near a machine.
But tinkering is tinkering.
Let em tinker.

http://www.jerrylockamy.com/music001.htm
 
mixmkr said:
As a recording newbie, should you really be concerned with "wow and flutter", reserving edge tracks for kick drums and bass guitars, storing your tapes "tails out", spending another $75 for a head demagnetizer, etc?

The answer is a simply, yes, in the same way one should be concerned about gain staging, impedance, phase cancellation, mic placement, hard drive recovery, distortion at both ends of the digital recording process and other fundamentals.

(I actually knew someone who was fat and bald at 23... really weird.) :confused:

I understand what you mean though, and in general what you say is true for many people, but it was digital promising miracles in days past, and I lived through all that. And that’s still happening in magazines such as Electronic Musician and Sound on Sound, and the occasional piece in the popular press on how you can do what George Martin did on your PC.

In the final analysis a guy that runs out and buys a canvas, paints and brushes isn’t a great artist. He is a guy that owns a canvas, paints and brushes -- that’s all we can say for sure, knowing nothing else. We can agree on that.

I don’t see unrealistic notions being propagated by the regular members of this forum. Analog aficionados are just a small rebellion with comparatively little influence in the vast home recording industry. Analog is better understood in the pro recording world.

That’s why some people stumble across this forum and flip… it makes them mad. But that’s how the human brain works. We resist new information at first -- whether it’s discovering that your father is Darth Vader or that some of the greatest names in recording are still using analog tape, it’s the same mind-bending process.

Hmmm… so like particles on magnetic tape, the mind doesn’t want to change.

Hey, maybe someone will invent a bias current device we can put on our heads to help us weigh the evidence more objectively. Eureka! :D
 

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Beck said:
Hey, maybe someone will invent a bias current device we can put on our heads to help us weigh the evidence more objectively. Eureka! :D
Hah! Interesting idea. :)
now, thinking a bit about it ...hmmmmm...
....
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You know what, I think head biasing have been around very very long time. And I'd say, to help us weigh the evidence more objectively we rather need some universal bias filter device. ;)
 
Well let's be honest, and bear in mind i'm new to this forum; you get what you pay for. If i want 24 tracks on 2" tape on a pristine machine, i know for a fact that i'm going to spend as much as i would for a nice car. I think that the recordists who want that kind of sound and that kind of professional gear shouldn't bitch and whine that no one makes them anymore. Companies do make the, companies do service them. No, you're not going to find a new 24 track 2" machine for $500, but good things cost money.

Is analog coming back? That's the wrong question entirely. Even entry level machines of decent quality in 1975 were thousands of dollars. I believe the Tascam Trs 8 debuted with a $3000 price point.

These were never affordable, nor were they a cinch to care for. You needed to either be a fanatic, or a professional. Most amatuers used cheap wood cased 2 tracks and recorded really wild and phenominal music.

Analog is on it's way out (sadly) because it was NEVER affordable for the average consumer. And now the recording market is accessible by EVERYONE with companies like Tapco, Behringer, Alesis aking fantastic gear at rock bottom prices. The future of recording lies in the bedroom PC recordist using vintage outboard gear that he/she finds on ebay. Because it's accessible. Us analog fanatics will continue to hunt for gear at decent prices, and sure, one of us from time to time will sell a kidney and buy a Studer, but the trend is predominantly towards the average person recording average music with average gear. Reality sucks sometimes.

I just bought a tascam trs8 so f*ck reality!
 
Yeah.

Digital has brought cheap recording to the masses, and on balance I think that's good, but certainly home recording's become less specialized, and less special in the process.

I remember the early days of 1983, after I had procured my new Tascam 244, 38 and M30 mixer. No, it wasn't cheap, but it was reasonably affordable considering the recording technology of the time. However, to invest in such equipment, you had to already be highly committed, at appx. $4250 for the entire lot of gear! The cost of admission separated the "wheat from the chaff" in the home/amatuer recording game, and you certainly don't have that differentiating point nowadays. In contrast, today I could by a used ATR-80/24 2"-24-track in reasonable condition with accessories for the same price. But having gone as far as to buy a 244, 38 & M30 in 1983, at the time I was completely certain that I was the only person for miles who had a 4-track Portastudio and 1/2"-8-track reel recorder in their apartment, and the only one doing "experimental" home recording in my neighborhood. In truth, at the time it made me a little paranoid, as my apartment was not in the best neighborhood, and I actually kept all this gear under lock, key and an alarm system!! Now, if you set a Tascam 38 in your garage in plain sight, I dare say that no one would think it's worth stealing! In further contrast, it seems that in every 3rd house there's some 16 year old doing 'puter recording. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's certainly not "specialized" like it used to be. It's just the way of today, where high technology is taken for granted.

... Do I sound "old, fat & bald" yet!! (I think I do!) :eek:

Anyway, be that as it may, there's fortunately still enough like-new vintage tape recording gear to go around, as I'm living proof of that. Since Y2k, I've scored loads of nice vintage recording gear for 10-30% of it's original value,... gear that I could never afford before, in quantities I'd never concieved of before. Does it irk me that the 244 I paid $1100 for in 1982 is a $110 Ebay item, or the 38 I paid $1999 for is maybe $299? No, not really, because I have all of 20+ years experience using this gear already under my belt, and I'm as big of a used gear shopper as any new analog-seeker.

Is there a point to my post? Well,... yes.

It's nice to wish for "new" analog equipment to be brought to market, but unfortunately the economics of scale are not there, and therefore whatever remains of analog will ultimately become a "boutique" industry, as evidenced directly by the "ATR Magnetics" specialty refurbished decks. Some hardcore "pros" will still stick to their analog "guns", but they're a dying breed. The "George Martins" of the industry are already dead or in their "golden years", and the "Steve Albini"-types are a rare breed. There's no mass market to cater to in analog.

So,... as much as feel I've "been there & done that", I tend to agree with BRDTS and Mixmkr on this subject. The upside is that used analog equipment is in a glut condition as e'one migrates to digital in huge tsunami-type waves. So, there's more used gear for those who want it.

Anyway, BRDTS is an industry pro, and he's getting his information directly from the "horses mouth", so it would be foolish to argue with him, or take issue with what he says.

Does that make me love analog recording any less? No.

Does that make me like digital recording any more? No.

Does that rule out any sort of resurgence of analog recording? Not entirely, but it will likely be a cottage or boutique industry, and prices will be comparable to when analog was mainstream, such as $3000 for a new 1/2"-8-track. That price structure will surely keep most people out of any "new" analog game, if/when it comes about, but I'm living proof that certain hardcore and committed individuals will still buy that type of gear at those prices.

Until then, rest assured that I'm stacked to the rafters with all my favorite analog gear, and large stockpiles of media to go along with it. Analog equipment could reach "0" availability, and I'll still be properly equipped to do my own "experimental" analog home recording for years, or maybe decades to come!

(End of rant; Stepping off soap box). ;)
 
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Hey hey

I am really not such a big jerk as i sound. I actually dont care who is fat or bald or older. I have friends of all ages and i prefer the company of older guys because they have more open mind about "the good old days" of music. So i really hope no one takes real offense at this. I guess i just see the world of competing for quality and success by spending a fortune as an attack on what i consider to be real art. So i get mad and try to say things that would hurt someone just as deeply in their life. But really, like Zappa said, "you know that hair aint where its at". I am not 14 by the way. Ive spent alot of time listening to music. I have never driven a car on the road and i am 25 years old. I never go anywhere, for years now. All i do is listen to records, yes vinyl records, and play. Ive sat and listened to just one ear of headphones for hours and hours just to hear what albums sound like with all the reverb on one side, or everything dry on one side. Everyone says "music is my life", but for me its not even something to say because it only IS. So maybe someone could see why i could get a little annoyed when people complain about professional this and that. Ive done nothing but listen to musc and learn music, and i mean NOTHING BUT, and i never gave two shits if it was through even good speakers. NO ONE is going to tell me what music is or has to be or needs to be.

So everyone who i offended by saying fat or old or bald seriously everyone is ugly and fat and bald in some way or will be and anyone who knows knows that creativity and genius are not in age or weight. So good luck with your recordings and realize that YOU are the true "folk" musicians of our era. Which is something to be proud of.
 
A Reel Person said:
Anyway, BRDTS is an industry pro, and he's getting his information directly from the "horses mouth", so it would be foolish to argue with him, or take issue with what he says.

oh, really?
ok, then.
tshshshshsh!... say nothing. what do you know anyway.
Right?
right.
>>>>>> heh heh :)
I can't help it, but to say again: "Go on! Shine Your Light on Me!"
Tell us (us - caged monkeys) what's going on out there in the real jungle. Shine on! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

One day you are a party jerk in night clubs or a salesman - next day you are an "industry stone" ... and then it goes back - while you are an "industry stone" - you are still in general just a party jerk ;)
That's why I wish guys to read those Mike Matthews's blah-blahs.
>>>>>
Us..., them... , yada yada....

/later
 
i dont really truly

feel an us vs them attitude to start, but i guess it can become that way quickly. My only true hope is that people could wake up and start making some good music. Spending all this time talking about whats better and what will/wont work is sort of a waste.

What i want to know is, if all these guys have the best equipment and all this experience, how come their music and recordings fucking suck?

SOMEONE PLEASE FOR ONCE ANSWER WHY MUSIC TECHNOLOGY IS BETTER THAN EVER YET THE ACTUAL MUSIC GETS WORSE AND WORSE

Someone please post your song you made on high high end equipment, and tell me why you think its worth all the money to record that song, and i will gladly listen.
 
from a factual standpoint, i have never heard new digital recording to be better than analog! Its marketed as "better", i think, but its to make money from more people. The easiability (sp?) of digital definately is superior; the mixing board is displayed on your monitor, no tape, etc. As what I see, everyone else in this thread are trying to say that essentially, not one is better than the other, and thats its mere personal preference, comfortability, easyness, accessibilty, etc. Just use what you prefer man.
 
Good Friend said:
What i want to know is, if all these guys have the best equipment and all this experience, how come their music and recordings fucking suck?

SOMEONE PLEASE FOR ONCE ANSWER WHY MUSIC TECHNOLOGY IS BETTER THAN EVER YET THE ACTUAL MUSIC GETS WORSE AND WORSE.
I can try. Let's see..., how about this?:
When you hear the sound is getting quieter, it does not necessarily means that it is being faded out, it may be because you are moving away from the source of it or meybe because of your ears are drying out.
Relativism in action ;)
and..., and then there's cortex....
take a look! and what's going on in there... ? - forget about it. :D

/respects
 
Heh, heh,...

Good Friend: I don't take offense to your statement, (para), "it's for old, fat balding men who covet new shiny objects!",... in fact I think it's comical, but just for the record, I'm neither,... except maybe old (44), but that depends on your perspective. To "Sir George Martin", I'm just a baby who's wet behind the ears. Anyway, to hear you describe yourself as (para) "25 and never having driven a car, but spending 24/7 practically immersed in music,... on vinyl no less",... pegs you as a very, very unique individual. I understand what you're saying and I'm not offended, but you're surely on "your own track" with regard to music and recording.

Dr ZEE: Due to your highly creative way with words, honestly, I hardly ever understand your posts, but as I cited (or seconded) "the future of analog as a cottage boutique industry", I in turn believe that you are one of those technical types of people who could make that happen. I'm surely not, although my tech skills are solidly mid-level. My point was not to say "all hail BRDTS in his wisdom", but the word from actual Tascam reps is that they no longer see a mass market in analog. That's not news, as I believe that's been a general understanding for several years already.

esotericality: I certainly didn't want to knock the young generation or 'puter recording in general, even though 'puter recording isn't attractive to me, and I'm somewhat older now. I was younger too, and I think I understand somewhat the things young people think about. It's just that way back in the "old days" (heh), home recording was a somewhat specialized game for specialists. Now it's anyone's game. Has that improved music? No, but neither has it hurt music. It's just more all-pervasive nowadays. In fact, Microsoft markets it's OS and PC's in general by pumping up an image of "I'm gonna record a big album at home on my PC running Windows",... which of course was unheard of in the early 80's (when I started),... and honestly I find it a somewhat "campy" and comical ad campaign that capitalizes on the desire for "fame" and/or "rock-star syndrome" that's common today. Not to pose it as "us vs. them, young vs. old in the recording-generation gap" or anything of the sort, and no offense to youngsters or oldsters alike!

I held off this thread for as long as I could, but there'ya have it. I certainly feel like my ideas are somewhat relevant, and I hope others do to. I'm not saying in these posts that I'm breaking any "new" ideas to the general public, but maybe just regurgitating common ideas from my own perspective.

Cheers!!
 
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I recall a couple of years ago, I think mid 2004 if I'm not mistaken, I found out that TEAC Canada, some time back, struck a deal with TEAC Japan for them to open up their assembly stations for limited runs of the TASCAM 34B. They made small batches of the product and all sold out. In fact, I posted that the 34B was still being made and that they had several still in their California warehouse, only to find out shortly thereafter, before I could put the money together which took several weeks, that all of the remaining 34B's had sold out. A 4 track recorder for $3000 a pop, still selling like hotcakes in 2004 !?!? So I take issue with the nay sayers that people don't want to spend this and that amount on this type of gear. They certainly do. Not the masses but small but significant groups. The only reason TEAC stopped the renewed production, as I was told, was the result of them not wanting to bother stopping production of their digi gear, which they made in the thousands, in order to make assembly room for the smaller batches of the 34B. Again, I ask, why can't TASCAM just open up a small seperate assembly space, which doesn't intrude on their other "ventures", to produce perhaps 10 or so such machines per year, let them sell out, produce another 10 etc ..... ? Why not use a system which lets people pay a deposit upfront so that TEAC knows what's going on thereafter. This can be done but with companies going purely on as much profit as they can, cutting costs left and right, it's no wonder they don't do it.

let me give an example: There are big companies such as BMG who mass produce relatively cheap cds, box sets etc .... These are the same guys who have an overseas label called FTD, which produces small batches, like perhaps not more than 5000 - 10,000, of CD's which will never be sold to the general public as it is more of a "specialized" line of outtakes, soundboard recordings etc .... The FTD label was opened to compete with the arguably lesser quality bootleg market and to satisfy the smaller but significant audience who want this sort of material. Some of the CDs cost A LOT more than the mainstream ones ...... All of these CD's sell out fast but the label doesn't have goals of mass marketing, hell you can't even get the cds in retail stores but online. Sure the company doesn't get nearly the profit of their mainstream runs but they do alright and win a select audience which will see them through to the end. They will be faithful. Do you see my point ? Really, why can't TEAC Japan do this ?
 
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Good Friend said:
SOMEONE PLEASE FOR ONCE ANSWER WHY MUSIC TECHNOLOGY IS BETTER THAN EVER YET THE ACTUAL MUSIC GETS WORSE AND WORSE

I think this has more to do with modern recording, mixing and mastering than with "technology" per se. One thing one must realize is that a particular recording medium doesn't possess magical properties which make you into the Beatles or George Martin over time. Take a listen to some 80's songs, which were recorded on pro reel to reel machines, arguably more "advanced" than those a decade or two earlier. Many of these 80's tunes, despite being "hits" in some cases, simply suck and sound awful - too bright, distant, fake and washed out in reverb. :eek: In comparison, the "lesser" technology of the 60's and 70's, many times produced SONICS which stomp all over stuff released later. It's not a simple case of Analog gets you the Beatles and Digital Britney Spears. :D
 
Dave, I only can tell you this: "Tascam comes - Tascam Goes".
Hope this is understandable. ;)
What ever Tascam's reps may say or think is just what a few dudes who happend to work for the company happened to think and/or say. That's all that is, no more no less. You can take it as "general understanding" if you wish - it's up to you, really.

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
Dave, I only can tell you this: "Tascam comes - Tascam Goes".
Hope this is understandable. ;)
What ever Tascam's reps may say or think is just what a few dudes who happend to work for the company happened to think and/or say. That's all that is, no more no less. You can take it as "general understanding" if you wish - it's up to you, really.

/respects

My experience with TASCAM tech people has been less than joyful. I'm sure there are some good people there but from my experience they've been sometimes helpful but other times rude, arrogant and clueless. I don't put stock in what they say.
 
I dont want

everyone to be like me or think like me or like what i like. But i will say this, good art is not any art. I am not one of those people who believe that any canvas with paint on it is a masterpiece with hidden meaning. Same goes for music. "MUSIC" is a phenomenon that occurs when the human brain percieves drama and emotion, tension and release, in the time based movement of frequencies (pitches), intervals (ratios of those pitches), chords (groups of intervals) tied in to lyrics and melodies. It is not "music" because there is an electric guitar. It is not music when the ratios of the frequencies aimlessly wander without resolution. You can make it as heavy as you want, you can make your voice sound as emotive as you want with screaming and gasping and all that crap mtv loves. But it is not "music". End of story. No argument possible if you understand what actually goes on in your brain when you hear pitches. Anyone who disagrees with this statement is going against the entire biological communities efforts and scientific discoveries.

Your ability to understand the frequencies, their relationships, and the emotions that are percieved when those relationships change IS your musical talent. It IS your ability to create real art. And my point is that all this nonsense and bullshit about formats and pro vs semi pro is a very very very far second to actual MANIPULATION of those frequencies. Everyone wants to be a guitar hero and get "great sounds" on recordings. But everybody stinks and buys more and more shit to fix it. Genres mean nothing. Equipment means nothing. I know its been said that "the song counts" and "no recording can fix a bad song". But no one ever says why because i guess its just cool to say that and be somewhat rebellious. But the real reason why is that no one spends the time needed learning how the brain reacts to frequencies. Thats not cool or fast enough. Just buy more shit. Who has the balls to deny this?
 
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