boxy guitar

My only dispute, TM, is that you're presenting the point of view that it's OK for you to provide an explanation of something technical, but when your explanations are incomplete or untrue, it's wrong for someone else to correct you. Any entry into "geeky science" (which is what this is, BTW, like it or not) is because you opened the door with your explanation, not because we all of a sudden want to ditch the music and feast on theory. Trust me, most of us will shout until the day we die that it's all about the music, and the rest is secondary.

There no dick waving there, it's just peer review. Yeah there are adolescent dick wavers on this forum, there are dick wavers everywhere. And there are adolescent spitaball shooters here too. There's one of those in every classroom. But for the most part, the people here help each other out. There are some with more experience than others, there are some with stronger suits than others. There are some who type with kid gloves on, and there are those who just tell it like it is (or at least how they see it.) No one person is on top of the heap, and the only ones who care about being on top of the heap are those who you'll learn very quickly have no business being there yet.

You're a smart guy with worthwhile stuff to contribute, TM. But give yourself some time to actually learn the players here. In that other thread you went up against folks like Farview and NL5 (and others who I forget, but would list if I remembered ;) ), who, had you have been here long enough to find out for yourself, are more often than not people worth far more listening to than arguing with, and if you did find yourself in disagreement with them, you'd find both of them to mostly be reasonable people who can participate in honest debate.

May I kindly suggest that you give the participants on this board a chance and that you allow a little give-and-take and not take everything as a personal attack, and you might find out that Farview, NL5, Noisewreck, Lee Rosario, Sonic Albert, Massive Master, MasteringHouse, NYMorningstar, Benny Chico, Harvey Gerst, xstatic, xfinsterx and many others that I apologize for not listing here are not the elite SOBs that some may make them out to be, and that each one is a human with both strengths and weaknesses, and who make this board a far more positive experience than a negative one.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
That said, though, it is entirely possible to have (just for one example) a piano playing a middle C and a synth playing a middle C and have the two tracks fairly destroy each other when summed. Just because the waveforms look different, doesn't mean most of their amplitudes can't virtually cancel each other out.
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Again, if you've got too many tracks that are similar and they start masking each other ... phasing isn't going to be your issue, and delaying or flipping a track isn't your solution.
 
TerraMortim said:
Anyway, I don't think I'm going to try to help anyone out any more on here, as every time I do, it just ends in a "my science knowledge is more vast than yours" dick waving fest, and it just ends up a waste of time, and no doubt confusing for the people asking the original question. I'll just sit back and see if anyone else has any cool bits of their experience to share, and keep things that have helped me before to myself. It is obviously not welcome, so I will not share it.
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FYI...music...mixing...recording...are all far more art than science....and everything about art is OPINION. Approaching this from a scientific point of view is going to get you all frustrated....like you are now.

Most of us here have had NONE of the dick waving contests that you have had...no one has ever given me what I would consider a hard time about anything. I suspect the real issue may be in how you present yourself and your opinions.

I don't mean to be....a dick....just honest. There is no need to withdraw your contributions. Besides..arguing over the internet is.....

retarded. :D
 
allright. I'll give folks a chance, even though chessrock is grating on my nerves atm haha. Pretty much, one thing I hate is when people are in a debate and the other starts to get into the whole name calling stupidity. It just starts to get irritating and only prooves that they're an asshole, not their point. You were far from the worst offender, it wasn't really even that directed at you in the first place =) Mostly just talked to you because, you brought it up. Anyway I just want to learn from others here, and help out with any experience that I have gotten along the way as well. Wouldn't ever post advice or something of that sort if it doesn't get results, after all I'm not the end all be all athority on this stuff lol.


and chessrock.. nope. You're wrong. This can occur with even only two signals. Altering the phase WILL change it, regardless of how many times you want to say it doesn't. As I said, you can take this advice, which you obviously haven't run into before, and use it to your advantage, or you can waste your finger muscles arguing things in an attempt to be "right." EQ is the culprit more often than not, however this is a factor that does occur. THe others that spoke about this are no doubt more profficient at explaining the technicallities and science behind this phenomina and they are correct in saying it's not "technically" a phase problem, but due to the language that audio professionals use to speak of phase (such as their example of a phase reversal, actually being a polarity reversal), I'll just avoid confusion and refer to it as phase. After all a mixing board is not made with boards (at least not any more), synths aren't ALWAYS synthesizing anything (sometimes just sampling which is technically just playback), being credited as a "programmer" on an album, usually takes about...well no programming at all (always been confused about that one), reverbs are actually delays, limiting is just compression at a super high ratio, and technically it's loudness not volume. These are the terms that we, as a bunch of dumb assed musicians use correctly or incorrectly to communicate with each other, so it has to be conveyed whether you like it or not in a way that will make sense for the industry lingo in practice. Anyway, this is a completely different problem than an EQ one, and the closest thing to liken it to is phase. A time delay fixes it when this occurs. period. I don't come from an alien world where things work for me and not for the rest of the world. Get your head out of the book and in front of the mixing desk. Open your mind, and allow yourself to be dumbfounded at how wrong you are. I do that all the time, and hot damn, it works like a charm. Being wrong is ususally the best way to improve btw.

zed. Yeah no joke. That's moreless my point with all of this. We're talking about art here. While there is science involved in everything, and knowledge of it can only help, and not hinder you, it doesn't really matter in the creation of art beyond that of a basic understanding. It's impossible to argue a subjective thing with "just the facts ma'am". What's one persons pile of steaming cow shit, is another's treasure.
Really what I was on about wasn't that they did it to every single person, it just seemed that there was enough of it going on, whether towards me or others, that it was grating on my nerves. I haven't been here for too terribly long, so I don't know the various people very well. I only was going off of what I had seen in the time I've been around here. Maybe I joined by coincidence when everyone was trolling everyone else. Dunno. I'll give people a chance as Glen said, and see over time who's who. You have to admit tho, with this business with chessrock, he's arguing to a point that he's hindering any help that could have been given to the original person by discounting any advice that I might have. This is someting that could have possibly helped this guy some time down the road, but beacause someone wants to be "right" they'll argue it to the death, even if they're not correct.

Anyway, lets just quit bitching about this BS and start talking about MUSIC and AUDIO, that's what this is here for.

p.s. Greg, I tried! it IS shorter :P
 
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the chance of two non-correlated signals producing significant amounts of phase cancellations over a broad range of frequencies for extended periods is very small versus with correlated signals.

it's not that it can't happen, it's doubtful the phase cancellations are happening in significant quantities and for long enough periods to be very discernible and evident e.g. with non-correlated signals. at any given time point, single frequencies do cancel but for very short periods and very small BWs, which will not lead to the kind of overall colouring that's being referenced.
 
It's more obvious in drums, so yeah I know what your saying. If the slam of the drum is really important, which in heavy music can be a very fine line, something like that can throw everything through a loop. It just depends on the type of shit your doing to how noticable and how important it is. If you're doing more smooth music, it wouldn't be so noticable, or that important. Guitars that are distorted are also very suseptable to this as well, since they are so broadband. If you're recording non distorted instruments, the chances are low of running into this as well. The distortion has so much frequency content in it that it can be unpredictable at times.
 
TerraMortim said:
If you're recording non distorted instruments, the chances are low of running into this as well. The distortion has so much frequency content in it that it can be unpredictable at times.
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An acoustic guitar has more frequency and dynamic range then a distorted electric but I don't want to nitpick.
 
chessrock said:
If you've got too many tracks that are similar and they start masking each other ... phasing isn't going to be your issue, and delaying or flipping a track isn't your solution.

The knowlege you're trying to impart is very well-intended, and for that, I can certainly appreciate it. But from the standpoint that it's mostly inaccurate / misinformed, it ultimately doesn't contribute to the overall knowlege base we're trying to build on this site, and I think people should at least be aware of that.

It's basically the old addage about a little bit of knowlege on a subject being a dangerous thing. You seem like a fairly smart guy, so I'm sure in time you'll figure some of this stuff out, but for now, you're just kind of dangerous to yourself and others, and should thus come with a warning label. :D

.
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TerraMortim Knows what he is talking about. If you have a cancelation problem on 2 different tracks changing one of the tracks slightly will stop the cancelation from happening. I've done that exact same thing when I had that problem, but I'd advise in a situation like that to just do another take. Thats the best way too fix the problem.

Edit: You can also use a different amp on each track. That almost guarentees avoiding that from happening.
 
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chessrock said:
Oh my God.

Terra = Southside Glen without the knowlege.

Which basically = the worst of all possible worlds.

.
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ah go fist yourself in the arse. hahaha. You won't have much of a problem with that, as your head frequents that orfice. As I said before, get your head out the book and make some music.
 
TexRoadkill said:
An acoustic guitar has more frequency and dynamic range then a distorted electric but I don't want to nitpick.
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my bad. :D Didn't know that. at least about the frequency content, the electric obviously doesn't have much dynamic range, so I knew that.
 
DopeSickKid said:
TerraMortim Knows what he is talking about. If you have a cancelation problem on 2 different tracks changing one of the tracks slightly will stop the cancelation from happening.
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If you're stereo micing and have two different tracks of the same thing, yea.

What Terra is trying to say is that flipping the polarity on a cowbell track can help out if it's clashing with the tuba track.

If you guys want to go on believing this stuff, then go ahead and knock yourselves out. I've been posting around here for some time now, and I've learned that most people prefer style over substance; would rather hear bad information from nice people than good information from assholes. :D Which is fine if feeling good is more important than making good recordings, I suppose.

.
 
bullshit. That's not what I said. a cowbell doesn't fucking sound like a tuba dumb fuck. Get a life and shut the hell up. If I see a grammy you earned, then I'll listen to you. Otherwise please engage in the sexual activities I suggested to you.
 
TerraMoron said:
If they sound great by themselves but not in the mix, it usually is caused by phase cancelation. Something is out of phase with certain frequencies in the guitar. Try soloing the guitar with different other tracks, and find the culprit. try reversing the phase (invert) on the instrument that offends, see if that helps.

For example, if your kazoo track is severely clashing with the washboard solo, you could try flipping your glockenspeil track to see if that helps.
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:D .
 
Are you trying to tell me you don't record washboard solos or endulge yourself in the fine arts of kazoo tracking?

Next thing you're going to tell me you've never played a stalacpipe organ.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
chessrock said:
Are you trying to tell me you don't record washboard solos or endulge yourself in the fine arts of kazoo tracking?

Next thing you're going to tell me you've never played a stalacpipe organ.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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lmao Humor is a good thing ;)
 
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