Boutique acoustics revisited....

[SHEPPARDB.]

A while back I posted some comments about a Bourgeois om model that I tried out at a local shop.I gave that guitar quite a beating with my comm-
ments and suggested that the maker had a lot to learn,especially before
he could get $3400 of my hard earn money.
Some of you said I did'nt know what I was talking about.Others suggested
that while it was fine for me to give my opinions on the guitar,I should have
addressed the reasons I did'nt like the guitar with more detail and less
bashing.
C7SUS made a comment (paraphrase)that even the best shops could turn
out a dud every now and then.
so,I decided that to be fair I would play some other models the next time
I was in the shop and give them an honest listen.I did and I am still not
impressed.
The first guitar I tried was the same one from my original post.The first
thing I noticed was that the low E sounded like it was pinched at the nut.
It sounded dead.(brand new strings)While the low E was the worst,all of
the strings seemed as if something was holding back thier ability to resonate
properly.It also had a huge uneveness of tone and lack of volume.I compared
it with some of the cheaper guitars in the room($700-$800 range)and the
cheapos won,hands down.
I played two more of the Bourgeois guitars.A jumbo and a country boy.Both
had the same problems as the first,only worse.
Anyway,dont take my word for it.Try one and judge for your self.

 

[ggunn]

OK, so you tried an expensive boutique (whatever that means) guitar and didn't like it. You played a cheaper guitar and liked it. You saved some money. What's the problem?

Someone else might try that same guitar and love it; there's no accounting for taste. Every guitar I've ever played had idiosyncrasies that made it unique. Some I liked, some I didn't.

 

[therage!]

Why are those guitars that expensive? I assume they have some awesome inlay work?

 

[ggunn]

Why are those guitars that expensive? I assume they have some awesome inlay work?

Mostly because they are hand made one at a time, rather than an a factory assembly line.

 

[therage!]

Mostly because they are hand made one at a time, rather than an a factory assembly line.

Ok, so that's why the premium price. Would that somehow make them sound better? I guess in the end it's all subjective.

 

[ggunn]

Ok, so that's why the premium price. Would that somehow make them sound better? I guess in the end it's all subjective.

Subjective. Absolutely.

 

[fraserhutch]

Why are those guitars that expensive?

Just to piss SHEPPARDB off

 

[edgarallanpoe]

The first guitar I tried was the same one from my original post.The first
thing I noticed was that the low E sounded like it was pinched at the nut.
It sounded dead.(brand new strings)While the low E was the worst,all of
the strings seemed as if something was holding back thier ability to resonate
properly.It also had a huge uneveness of tone and lack of volume.I compared
it with some of the cheaper guitars in the room($700-$800 range)and the
cheapos won,hands down.
I played two more of the Bourgeois guitars.A jumbo and a country boy.Both
had the same problems as the first,only worse.
Anyway,dont take my word for it.Try one and judge for your self.

Excellent post bro. I played a Taylor with almost the exact same thing happening with the low E string. I know exactly what you are talking about. An impropperly cut nut can have drastic effects on tone and playability. To be fair though, it may have n\been fine when it left the shop. Sometimes when a neck goes to a dry climate, there can be some minor shrinkage of the neck which causes the nut to become ill fitting. I also saw this once on a Breedlove.

 

[gordone]

Alot of the factories (Martin/Taylor for example) make each piece of wood for the top the exact same thickness for a given model. Also, the braces are usually carved the same way. This makes the guitars sound pretty good and consistent.

The smaller shops (and of course the individual builders) spend alot more "voicing" the tops and braces, so as to bring out the most in each piece of wood. This takes alot more labor hours, hence the higher cost. Obviously, once you start adding inlay work, that makes the costs jump up as well, but inlay doesn't do anything for the sound - the individual attention to the tops and bracing does.

Of course, this attention to detail carries over to all aspects of the guitar's construction. Santa Cruz makes around 600 guitars a year, Martin makes 70,000! Also, when you call Santa Cruz, there's a good chance Richard Hoover will answer the phone. Good luck getting Chris Martin on the phone!
(Full disclaimer - I think Martin makes wonderful guitars and I own two of them!)

My Santa Cruz OM/PW cost around $2500 and it has barely any inlay. I think the only pearl/abalone is on the headstock logo. No exotic woods either - just sitka spruce and East Indian rosewood. But, man is it a tone monster!!!!!

Sheppard - What shop did you play these guitars in?

Ok, so that's why the premium price. Would that somehow make them sound better? I guess in the end it's all subjective.

 

[HapiCmpur]

Alot of the factories (Martin/Taylor for example) make each piece of wood for the top the exact same thickness for a given model. Also, the braces are usually carved the same way. This makes the guitars sound pretty good and consistent.

Good point gordone. The corollary is that boutique guitars are far more idiosyncratic than factory-made guitars. The up-side to idiosyncracies is that if you play enough boutiques, you will eventually find one that is god's own instrument. The down-side is that it's hard to find a large quantity in one place for direct comparisons.

I've spent considerable time over the past couple months traveling to little shops around the state to play hand-made and small-production guitars. One shop had only one L. Benito and one Bourgeois, another shop had just two Breedloves, etc, etc. If I want to play a Santa Cruz I'll have to drive over two hours (one way), and the one in the shop isn't even the model I'm interested in. That's a bummer.

Another complication is that many of the smaller shops don't have the manpower to adequately maintain their guitars. I've recently played a lot of very expensive boutiques that felt and sounded awful because the shop was unable to even dust them regularly, much less keep them properly set and tuned. I played a pricey L. Benito, for instance, that suffered from terrible fret buzz. Perhaps it just needed a truss adjustment; but then again, perhaps it was a poorly made guitar. Hard to tell. I know that Light likes to bust on "Banjo Mart," but at least the guitars on the wall at The Guitar Center are set, tuned, and ready to impress (or not) customers.

After a lot of shopping around, I'm coming to the conclusion that the best choices out there are Taylors and Martins. Both companies make excellent instruments, and both offer the additional advantages of consistency and ubiquity. I can go to TGC any day of the week and play dozens of different models, and then once I've settled on a model, I can play several different guitars of that same model and pick the one I like best. As interested as I am in Santa Cruz guitars, they just can't offer me that.

 

[foo]

. . . Another complication is that many of the smaller shops don't have the manpower to adequately maintain their guitars. I've recently played a lot of very expensive boutiques that felt and sounded awful because the shop was unable to even dust them regularly, much less keep them properly set and tuned.
. . . As interested as I am in Santa Cruz guitars, they just can't offer me that.

That is about the saddest thing I've read here for a long time.

Where are you going to look at these guitars?

I have two Collings and a Ramirez guitar (all three are absolute killers) - and the stores they came from were run by guitar guys who really knew their stuff.
Not dusting the guitars???

Jeez . . .

 

[gordone]

You must not be shopping at my Guitar Center! The Martins there had cracks, horrible fret buzz, and other ailments. They had a 1960s Martin D28 which wouldn't play beyond the 12th fret (I kid you not!), had a big crack in the back and was still priced in the high $3Ks!!!

Regarding an under-staffed boutique shop, my shop (Acoustic Roots outside of Philly) has only two employees but they manage to keep their stock in great shape. Every guitar is wiped down after you play (you have to have them get the guitars for you, no biggie), and they would be he happy to restring any guitar for you if you feel the strings are getting old. Now some guitars there didn't do it for me (I played a Martin 000-28 yesterday which was lackluster), but that had to do with personal taste rather than the condition they were in.

I know that Light likes to bust on "Banjo Mart," but at least the guitars on the wall at The Guitar Center are set, tuned, and ready to impress (or not) customers.

 

[HapiCmpur]

That is about the saddest thing I've read here for a long time.

Sorry to bring you down, foo. Didn't mean to ruin your day. And from what you and gordone have said, I'm starting to wonder if I just live in an unusual area. My local Guitar Center may not be perfect, but it's pretty impressive compared to the competition. The instruments there are immaculate, the selection is large and diverse, help is always available, and although the salesguys can't always answer my questions on the spot, they do always get an answer for me before I leave.

That contrasts sharply with the three small shops I visited recently, which were exactly as described in my previous post. I'm not going to name names, of course, because I have no way of knowing if my individual experience with each of those shops is characteristic of their normal operations. For me, though, TGC seems to be the best option by far.

Who knows? Maybe the small shops are suffering in this region precisely because the local Guitar Center is so good. There's another large dealer in the area, too (an independent), so that's probably not helping the little shops, either.

 

[philboyd studge]

Sorry to bring you down, foo. Didn't mean to ruin your day. And from what you and gordone have said, I'm starting to wonder if I just live in an unusual area. My local Guitar Center may not be perfect, but it's pretty impressive compared to the competition. The instruments there are immaculate, the selection is large and diverse, help is always available, and although the salesguys can't always answer my questions on the spot, they do always get an answer for me before I leave.

That contrasts sharply with the three small shops I visited recently, which were exactly as described in my previous post. I'm not going to name names, of course, because I have no way of knowing if my individual experience with each of those shops is characteristic of their normal operations. For me, though, TGC seems to be the best option by far.

Who knows? Maybe the small shops are suffering in this region precisely because the local Guitar Center is so good. There's another large dealer in the area, too (an independent), so that's probably not helping the little shops, either.

Sounds as if you are lucky enough to live close to a good Guitar Center. What GC's do offer is a large selection of guitars to compare and for higher end acoustics, they tend to keep the room humidified....beyond that, you have to look beyond strings, setup, and 'shop ick' when playing them. Those are things you can take care of on your own after a purchase.

Personally, I don't have a lot of use for boutique instruments (although I've had a few) and have never played a Bourgeois (is that pronounced like I think it is - 'booge-wah'?), yet the best dread I've ever had was a handmade from Alan Perez in the mid '70's.... He made the tradtional instruments for Los Lobos...fantastic stuff. If you've got the money to burn, why not get a high end boutique if that's what you want?

Though I almost always buy used, I actually bought two new guitars last year; a Gibson J-45 Rosewood, and an Eastman AR 810-CE archtop. The Gibson was a case of having a couple of hours to kill before a gig and a GC was in the neighborhood. Though I had no intention of buying anything that day, two things stood out; it sounded amazing and was on clearance. It really jumped out because it excelled at all the styles and volumes I threw at it. Now I've been playing for 50 years now and usually if something sounds good or not but to be safe I a/b'd it with a dozen other similar guitars before buying. So for $1295 I walked out with what I think was a good deal. By no means does that indicate every J-45 R is a gem, you gotta play 'em to find out.

 

[SHEPPARDB.]

OK, so you tried an expensive boutique (whatever that means) guitar and didn't like it. You played a cheaper guitar and liked it. You saved some money. What's the problem?

Someone else might try that same guitar and love it; there's no accounting for taste. Every guitar I've ever played had idiosyncrasies that made it unique. Some I liked, some I didn't.

You know the definition of "Idiosyncrasies" but you dont know what
"Boutique" means?

 

[onlyfingers]

The word "boutique" may not help us understand

You know the definition of "Idiosyncrasies" but you dont know what
"Boutique" means?

bou·tique (bū-tēk')
n.

A small retail shop that specializes in gifts, fashionable clothes, accessories, or food, for example.
A small shop located within a large department store or supermarket.
A small business offering specialized products and services: an investment boutique; a health-care boutique.

The first meanings listed in a definition--retail--is usually the most common. So the third definition above, the less common definition, applies to small manufacturers of guitars. I haven't looked, but I imagine that even the big guitar manufacturers are probably pretty small businesses.

Although "boutique" applies to the enterprise and not the product, it has implications--mostly good--on the kind of products that the enterprise can make. Among the not-so-good implications is that the business may not be able to benefit from economies of scale, which may contribute to the relatively high price of "boutique" guitars.

Most of us know what you mean to an extent. Froggy Bottom not Taylor. Collings? What do we do? Call and ask how many people work there?

 

[astoebe]

Sounds as if you are lucky enough to live close to a good Guitar Center. What GC's do offer is a large selection of guitars to compare and for higher end acoustics, they tend to keep the room humidified....beyond that, you have to look beyond strings, setup, and 'shop ick' when playing them. Those are things you can take care of on your own after a purchase.

I also am a GC fan....they will change the strings for you (at least they have for me a few times) if you are looking to buy something, you can talk them down on their already lower prices, and I would rather buy a guitar that doesn't need much set up to begin with

 

[ggunn]

You know the definition of "Idiosyncrasies" but you dont know what
"Boutique" means?

Of course I know what the word means, but it is thrown around a lot to mean anything from a small run at a factory to a lone specimen built by an unknown guy in his garage. "Boutique" does not unambiguously mean quality.

 

[Treeline]

This stuff is so subjective; whenever you see a high price tag and the instrument doesn't make your knees weak, it's natural to assume something is wrong with it. Could be a bunch of things, including poor shop setup. But two things occur to my mind.

The first is that the shop might have other noise distractions in it, or be a place that swallows sound; the relative differences between instruments become hard to pick out. If that is the case, you would be impressed with the sub-thousand dollar instrument and particularly unimpressed with the expensive one - hardly any difference in that environment. So expectations can fool you.

The other thing is that sometimes you can hear more of what a factory instrument has to say while its still new. A good instrument will still open up with time and use, but a lot of its voice will be there on the shop floor. A boutique instrument may need more time to develop, and then it tends to develop further and for a longer time. So with time and patience, it can grow to be an incredibly beautiful thing. Again, the expectation that there should be a world of difference may not get met - yet.

Even so, a killer guitar should still sound like one on the rack.

 

[HapiCmpur]

The first is that the shop might have other noise distractions in it, or be a place that swallows sound; the relative differences between instruments become hard to pick out.

That's for sure. In the small shops I've been to, it's hard enough just to find a place to sit down with the instrument, much less be able to hear it without Muzak and other guitarists playing all around you. I understand that the small shops can't afford to give up sales floor space to create a separate listening environment, and I don't fault them for it. It's just one of those things that makes it harder for them to compete with the big stores.

A boutique instrument may need more time to develop, and then it tends to develop further and for a longer time. So with time and patience, it can grow to be an incredibly beautiful thing.

I've heard several other people make similar statements, but this idea seems counter-intuitive to me. Perhaps someone here can clear up my confusion.

I thought one of the big advantages of hand-made guitars is that the woods are cured longer (if that's even the right term for it). Shouldn't that mean that a good boutique guitar is already farther along the course of its maturation than most factory-made instruments? And wouldn't that make it less likely to develop other characteristics later on?