Bouncing to Tape?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Giganova
  • Start date Start date
Giganova

Giganova

gimmi your mic!
Hey guys --

I was thinking if I should get a 2-track tape recorder so I can bounce my final mixes from Logic through my Allen & Heath mixer onto tape, and then back into Logic to master it. I was hoping this might add some 'analog warmth' since I have the feeling my tracks suffer from digital harshness (or whatever you wanna call it).

Would bouncing to tape make sense?

Is so, coud you guys give me some advice which 2-track tape recorder I could get, and how much money I would have to drop?
 
If you can still find an old used TEAC or Pioneer two-track sound-with-sound, 7.5 - 15ips, open-reel 1/2" tape deck on eBay whose heads don't have a zillion hours on them, something like that would give you decent "analog tape" sound on a tight budget. I used to get excellent results from a Pioneer RT1020L. I don't know if those can still be found, but I'll be you could get one these says for US$200 or less.

A new quality 3-head cassete deck would be a convenient way to do it for maybe between US$300 and US$500 new. The 3-head configuration would allow you to play back as you record; if you have enough I/O available, you could record right back as you play out. On a 2-head deck you'd have to record. then rewind and playback as a separate process. Plus, most 3-head decks are going to give you higher quality components all around (unless you wantto pay US$1200 for a TEAC 122 2-head...not! ;) )

Caution, though, if you buy used...if the heads are overworn and/or not properly aligned, the sound will be seriously comprimised. This is true on both the open reel and the cassette machines, and is especially true of S.W.S. and 3-head decks.

G.
 
Last edited:
I got curious and just looked up the 1020L on eBay. Man, those pictures brough back some great memories (I sold the deck many years ago.) *sigh*.

Yeah, the best one they have on there has a current bid of about $105 + $35 shipping with one day left in bidding. The guy claims to have completly refurbished it and gives it a 90 day warranty.

I may just have to skim a few pennies out of the budget for a while and get me one of those again, just for the memories and nostalga, if nothing else ;)

G.
 
Last edited:
These units look really sweet! I'll try to rent or borrow one of these units first to see if I get that tape sound I'd like to have.
 
Good idea. Hopefully you can find one for rent somewhere; they are rather old units (ca. 1973-4, I think.),I'm not sure how available they'll be for rental unless you have a vintage audio place near you.

...and if you do borrow one, let me borrow it next ;) (j/k)

G.
 
hey Glen --

I saw that my local music store has an Otari 5050 reel-to-reel recorder for $190.- that has a speed up to 15ips. Its kinda BIG and is rack mounted in a cart, but looks like its in good condition.

Do you know anything about that recorder? They also have a Teak 25-2 for $190.-.
 
You could always record it to VHS tape (video tape) or whatever the equivalent is in America. Seriously, VHS has three channels, is pretty damn cheap and is analogue. Perfect. Give it a try. My mate tried it and said it was pretty well decent.
 
Giganova said:
hey Glen --

I saw that my local music store has an Otari 5050 reel-to-reel recorder for $190.- that has a speed up to 15ips. Its kinda BIG and is rack mounted in a cart, but looks like its in good condition.
The Otari 5050 is an excellent unit, but if it's selling for only $190 there has got to be something wrong with it. I would avoid that unless you know a tech that can look at it.
 
Bouncing To Tape

Hi,
How You Doing

Vhs Is Not A Bad Idea, But The Frequence Response
Is Like This 50-10000 Hz And Sometimes 50-15000 Hz

Maybe A Beta With 20-20000 Hz Would Be Better But Hard To Find

Tape Recorders Is First Off All Mechanical Traitement,

It's Magnetic And Voltages Are Increasing The Noise/signal Ratio

Better Find A Good Soundcard Or Mixer For Less 200$

And Make Your Mix And Your Master In Your Computer

Without Having Machanical And Magnetic Noise....
 
Bouncing To Tape

Fo Sure

Some People Prefer The Old Sound Of These Tapes Recorders...

One Thing You Have To Know,
Keep It Always Clean, Made A Check Up Every....
 
Right then.
Specifications
Format: S-VHS(PAL, NTSC 3.58 SP only)
VHS (PAL, MESECAM, NTSC3.58/4.43) with Hi-Fi VHS audio
Power requirement: AC 90 - 260V AC (Operating)
AC 110 - 240V AC (Rating)
50/60 Hz, Auto Voltage
Max. recording time (PAL): (SP) 240min./(LP) 480min./(EP)720min. (with E-240 cassette)
(NTSC): (SP) 160min./(EP) 480min. (with T-160 cassette)
Hi-Fi audio freq. response: 20Hz~20,000Hz
Channel coverage VHF band Low: 43.25~147.25MHz
VHF band High: 154.25~468.25MHz
UHF band: 471.25~863.25MHz
RF Output: System G/K/I switchable
UHF ch E28~E60 switchable
Dimensions (W x H x D): 400 x 94 x 270mm
Weight: 3.4Kg
 
So you guys are saying that I could use VHS? Never thought about it.
 
I've done it and it can sound good. But most consumer decks have built-in audio limiters, and if your signal is too hot you will hear a difference when you play it back. If you have a deck where you can adjust the input levels then you'd be OK.
 
Personally, unless you get a good 1/4" or 1/2" open reel deck, I would not advise bouncing through tape. In general cassette, VHS etc... will probably introduce so much crap that it will outweigh any of the advantages that you might get. You might even be better off just getting a nice 2 buss compressor and using it very lightly to help to give you a little more "iron" in your mix.
 
I agree that using an old tape recorder might create a lot of problems.

I think I'll look into either a stereo tube pre or tube compressor. Any suggestions which ones might do the trick? I am on a very tight budget at the moment (I could spend a few hundred bucks).
 
A little compression is almost always a good idea, but it's a totally different animal than "warming" via analog tape bounce. It's like the difference between trans fluid and oil, I's a good idea to use and maintain them both properly, but they serve two entirely different purposes. (Perhaps a little over-)simply stated, compression affects the dynamic range or envelope of the waveform - it squeezes out the total amplitude, whereas "analog warming" affects the shape of the waveform - it tends to smooth the shape of the waveforms without having a direct effect on the total dynamic range.

These other gentleman are indeed correct that a decent tube compressor can add a good warmth to the sound in a similar way that analog tape can. I personally use the ART ProVLA, a real bargain at US$200. It has a sound similar (though not *quite* equal) to some tube compressors three to five times it's price. I consider it one of the best purchases I have made, honestly, when you rate it on a "bang for the buck" scale.

However, in my experience, the amount of "warmness" it provides is proportional to the level of compression applied, and also varies depending of the attack speed you have it set for. Put another way, to really achieve that "warmness", you have to apply a certain level and type of compression. As to whether the level of compression required to get the warmness you desire is the same as the level you want to actually compress is a crapshoot. This is not an issue with a quality open-reel analog tape machine Whiel there may be some level of compression when going to the tape because you may be reducing your s/n ratio by maybe 10 dB at best (on a good machine you're still getting >90dB s/n), that's far less noticable than running through a compressor at 2:1 or 3:1.

The truth is, its the "crap" introduced by the analog tape machine that provides the warmth; it's - technically speaking - a desirable form of "distortion". Of coure you have to make sure when you buy a used tape machine that it's well serviced; that the heads are in decent shape and properly aligned, that the capstan and pinch roller are in good round and have a good, tight flat surface, etc. But if you get a quality machine that has been taken care of and maybe even refurbished by a knowledgable tech, none of those need be an issue. I have used 30- and 40-year old tape machines that were in good order and gave excellent results.

Giganova, I'm not intimately familiar with the Otari model you describe, but I have used Otari products in the past, including an 8-track 15ips machine, and I have found them to be quality reliable products when kept in good maintenance.

I have also used VHS-HiFi and Betacam (not Betamax) for audio mastering (this was a common trick of mine in the days before the DAW). I'm not sure I can explain the technical reason why, but they just do not give the same analog "warmth" that the 1/2" open reels do.

G.
 
Last edited:
Mixing down to 1/2" is supposed to sound pretty awesome...haven't gotten to do it yet, but I always check prices for Otari MTR-10s and MTR-12s on Ebay. They've actually come down quite a bit...some of them might have a lot of hours on them though and need some maintenance. Lately I've been dealing with an MTR-12 that is pretty pristine, and this thing sounds amazing.
 
EleKtriKaz said:
Mixing down to 1/2" is supposed to sound pretty awesome...

Like light compression or EQing the air above 10kHz, analog tape warming can be a subtle effect not noticed by some but a jaw-dropper to others. It depends on how "educated" their ears are.

I have a brother that couldn't hear the difference between a 128K MP3 and a 2" master if his life depended on it :D ; on him the sound of decent quality analog tape is totally lost, especially on the relatively prosumer level of 1/2".
On the other hand, I know guys who are real pros who would consider my old 1020L a quaint toy and the use of it for mastering as a cheap parlor trick creating a comprimised sound.

I personally think both sides are extreme. IMHumbleO, if you can't hear the difference between a stereo mixdown fresh out of Cubase (or whatever) and one bounced through a good 1/2" tape first, you simply don't have the flight hours yet, but if you consider the use of a 1/2" machine to be amateurish, you're beeing a bit of a gear snob and coud stand to have your budget tightened a few notches to see what life is like in our world ;) .

Just one guy's opinion. Don't hate me for it. :D

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
A little compression is almost always a good idea, but it's a totally different animal than "warming" via analog tape bounce.
G.
I was thinking about using either a tube pre or compressor to drive the signal into slight tube distortion. I understand that this is different than using a tape recorder, but it could give an 'analog' sound & feel without the hassle of tapes (alignment of tape, head cleaning, servicing, etc).
 
Back
Top