Blending Drum Samples with Recorded Drums

  • Thread starter Thread starter AshX
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I could go on and on. Some, maybe most, of these decisions were not compromises because getting the real instrument was impossible, they meant to use the sounds they did because that was the texture they were going for.
The point that you were making earlier about who defines what's real and what isn't real had me thinking about how some of the instruments we now take for granted came about and that's one of those aspects of humanity that I often find myself marvelling at.
The bass guitar was meant to be simply an amplified version of the double bass. Few people forsaw it completely shunting the double bass aside.
Electric pianos weren't really meant to be instruments with their own unique sound. They were meant to be a way of having an easilly portable piano on stage which was why they were originally called stage pianos.
The mellotron {and it's forerunner, the Chamberlain} was invented by an American guy called Harry as an instrument to be played at home for family entertainment, that could play back taped samples of whatever instrument was recorded onto the tapes it housed. But it ended up helping to revolutionize certain sonic aspects of 60s and early 70s rock and pop and few people that used it tried to emulate the sounds of an actual orchestra even though they often used orchestral settings.
The synthesizer had an interestingly vague, almost directionless, early few years until the likes of Stevie Wonder, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock and Jan Hammer started utilizing it as an instrument in it's own right with it's own sound, rather than as an imitator.
The early drum machines and syndrums sounded :cursing:'kin awful as actual drums. But when certain bods used them percussively and texturally rather than as an attempt to be drums, they took on a life of their own. And the same thing happened with 90s R&B and rap drums once sampling had become de rigeur.
And even the beloved electric guitar was very much the poor relation to the acoustic initially. It's main reason for existence was to be heard in jazz outfits above the noise of all those horns and drums, a little rhythmic accompaniment, not dominant, maybe the odd solo......It was rarely the dominant instrument in 50s rock'n'roll. That honour fell to the piano and saxophone.
Compression in recording and it's benefits on drums, bass guitar and other instruments was accidental. Compression was designed for radio before recording had taken off in a big way.
Even sample enhancing of drums isn't new. As far back as the 70s, engineers would have objects whacked to the beat of the snare and add the sound in mixing for extra 'presence' and wallop. And what with layering of guitars and adding synth bass to bass tracks and even shadowing the guitar with organ for extra body {the organ by itself was inaudible}, the notion of artifice and using things differently to what they're designed for is a long established one.
I first became aware of VSTis when I read Charlie Watts talking about how, in the 60s, if you wanted a tabla, you'd go to the Asian music circle and rent an Indian guy to play them but nowadays {this was 2003} you'd use samples. It wasn't so much because the actual player wasn't available; they were the Rolling Stones after all. Any player they wanted, they could get. But some of these 'fake' instruments have textures of their own that the real thing won't necessarilly bring you. In the case of tablas, I have both. I have more scope and love the sound of the sampled ones. And the actual ones, I use to get a very different sound to the way I've always heard them sound when played by people who know what they're doing !
 
I think it all depends on what you are shooting for. No 'everyday' listener is ever going to cry foul on drum replacement or anything else. But don't extrapolate from there. It doesn't mean any individual player, or instrument is redundant. Give the Miles track below a listen. There aren't enough virtual instrument drum, piano, upright bass sample or horn samples in the world to create something like this in a box. It won't happen.

 
I think it all depends on what you are shooting for. No 'everyday' listener is ever going to cry foul on drum replacement or anything else. But don't extrapolate from there. It doesn't mean any individual player, or instrument is redundant. Give the Miles track below a listen. There aren't enough virtual instrument drum, piano, upright bass sample or horn samples in the world to create something like this in a box. It won't happen.



This is true, but since it has already been done, why would you try and recreate it? I appreciate what has gone before, but even in this, the trumpet was used differently than what he used it for (dixie land, brass bands) so even this example supports what grim stated. Even the humble record was originally created for dictation.

For me, and I am right there with Grim on this one, I am not trying to replace anything, I am trying to create. If I take a live drum and put something underneath of it to give me something different (and pleasing). I'm gonna do it. I play acoustic guitar, but really, while I love the sound, after 30 minutes, it sounds the same. So, now I use it to pin the song and use it to provide textures in puts for other effects.

To me it is kind of like the Amish who shuns technology. But, the wheel is technology, the plow is technology, modern crop seeds are technology (as far back as 2000 years creating hybrids). So, the decision is, where does one decide where to get off the merry go-round, but it isn't gonna stop. Guy next store said he didn't believe in digital, I said really, why are you listening to a CD.

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, but things keep moving and each person has to determine are they going to move with or, hey, I am going to stick around here for awhile and see what this brings me.
 
I think it all depends on what you are shooting for. No 'everyday' listener is ever going to cry foul on drum replacement or anything else. But don't extrapolate from there. It doesn't mean any individual player, or instrument is redundant. Give the Miles track below a listen. There aren't enough virtual instrument drum, piano, upright bass sample or horn samples in the world to create something like this in a box. It won't happen.



That sounds like something from a Peanuts cartoon. :D
 
First, don't think that tracks are toast yet.
First the bass drum. Pull it up alone, put a parametric eq on it and find the areas where the bleed is stronger than the drum and lower those until the BD is louder than the bleed. Now here's the real trick, taught to me by a guitar player. We copied the track twice so we had three tracks. We then focused our attention on track one, making it the best low frequency we could. The we did track three as the best top frequency. Then we made the middle track the best mid we could. We then pulled up those three and made the best overall BD sound and mixed it down to a fourth track. That because the track we used. It sounded like all the pro recordings we had ever heard. Do the same with the toms, but you don't need to "three-track' them. Just get them the best overall tone and then [process a little reverb on them. The snare is the hardest. If the original sound is not satisfactory, try this trick. Don't trigger a sound Instead, record a great snare sound on a separate track. Put it only on all the back beats. That will make the whole track "pop". If the original sound interferes, just lower the volume on each of the original back beats so the sampled sound dominates. I know that sounds like a lot of work, but this is a fix and if the original tracks are well played you can save them if you're willing to do the work. Good Luck,
Rod Norman

Hey guys,

I'm in the process of putting together a rough mix of a few tracks that I recorded drums in a studio in 2011. The experience was awful to say the least, and the drum tracks are pretty spotty. Playing wise they're solid, but the snare drum sounds like a toy drum and the toms are pretty dead sounding (they were not muted in any way) and the kick drum has a lot of bleed and issues. I was curious if any of you guys had any suggestions as far as blending the recorded drums with some samples to retain the live feel but also help the drums pack more of a punch since no matter how I EQ, compress, or gate them they don't deliver the energy needed for the song. I've heard of software like Drumagog, but am no expert on the matter nor do I know how to even begin "blending" the sounds.

Thanks a bunch.

Ash
 
First, don't think that tracks are toast yet.
First the bass drum. Pull it up alone, put a parametric eq on it and find the areas where the bleed is stronger than the drum and lower those until the BD is louder than the bleed. Now here's the real trick, taught to me by a guitar player. We copied the track twice so we had three tracks. We then focused our attention on track one, making it the best low frequency we could. The we did track three as the best top frequency. Then we made the middle track the best mid we could. We then pulled up those three and made the best overall BD sound and mixed it down to a fourth track. That because the track we used. It sounded like all the pro recordings we had ever heard. Do the same with the toms, but you don't need to "three-track' them. Just get them the best overall tone and then [process a little reverb on them. The snare is the hardest. If the original sound is not satisfactory, try this trick. Don't trigger a sound Instead, record a great snare sound on a separate track. Put it only on all the back beats. That will make the whole track "pop". If the original sound interferes, just lower the volume on each of the original back beats so the sampled sound dominates. I know that sounds like a lot of work, but this is a fix and if the original tracks are well played you can save them if you're willing to do the work. Good Luck,
Rod Norman

Thanks, Rod. I never thought of that. I may give that a try just for the heck of it.
 
First, don't think that tracks are toast yet.
First the bass drum. Pull it up alone, put a parametric eq on it and find the areas where the bleed is stronger than the drum and lower those until the BD is louder than the bleed. Now here's the real trick, taught to me by a guitar player. We copied the track twice so we had three tracks. We then focused our attention on track one, making it the best low frequency we could. The we did track three as the best top frequency. Then we made the middle track the best mid we could. We then pulled up those three and made the best overall BD sound and mixed it down to a fourth track. That because the track we used. It sounded like all the pro recordings we had ever heard. Do the same with the toms, but you don't need to "three-track' them. Just get them the best overall tone and then [process a little reverb on them. The snare is the hardest. If the original sound is not satisfactory, try this trick. Don't trigger a sound Instead, record a great snare sound on a separate track. Put it only on all the back beats. That will make the whole track "pop". If the original sound interferes, just lower the volume on each of the original back beats so the sampled sound dominates. I know that sounds like a lot of work, but this is a fix and if the original tracks are well played you can save them if you're willing to do the work. Good Luck,
Rod Norman



Interesting possibilities. I am all about getting the most from any live recording. In fact, the toms on AshX's recording did not even seem to need any help. From the individual track downloads, they sounded quite good as they were recorded. I only gave a different possibility to getting there with the kick and snare in a different way.

I think the 'bottom line' has more to do with the approach of the mix in this genre. If the drums do not sit on top, then the rest of the mix will not have it's placement. Getting the drums firmly in place before anything, is the first key to getting a good mix IMO. The individual tracks sound quite good. I just proposed a quick way to get there. Not that it is not possible with the live tracks alone. Just putting forth alternate possibilities...
 
Interesting possibilities. I am all about getting the most from any live recording. In fact, the toms on AshX's recording did not even seem to need any help. From the individual track downloads, they sounded quite good as they were recorded. I only gave a different possibility to getting there with the kick and snare in a different way.

I think the 'bottom line' has more to do with the approach of the mix in this genre. If the drums do not sit on top, then the rest of the mix will not have it's placement. Getting the drums firmly in place before anything, is the first key to getting a good mix IMO. The individual tracks sound quite good. I just proposed a quick way to get there. Not that it is not possible with the live tracks alone. Just putting forth alternate possibilities...

I tried to mess around with the bass drum briefly (not very intensely) as Rod suggested and it was difficult to get a lot of those boosts to have the same impact as Jimmy's samples. It could just be my own inadequacies as an engineer and mixer but it's a nice alternate option to have. Again, like Jimmy said, getting the drums to cut through all the layers of instrumentation throughout the song has been an issue with the original tracks, particularly the kick and snare.
 
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