beyond general midi...

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Lomitus

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Hello Everyone,
It's been a while since I've posted to the HomeRecording forums. I've been looking on the web as well as in this forum and am not seeing what I am looking for.

I am using Cakewalk Pro 9 and a basic midi compatable keyboard...an older Kawai. I know how to use General midi (and his cousin Major insanity) and I would like to expand beyond this a little, without really having to go out and buy ton's of stuff I don' t need and learn tons of stuff I don' t need. I'm basically a guitar player and a drummer and all I want to do is just add some strings or some nice synth sounds to some of the projects I'm working on. First...please don't say "midi.com"...I've been there...its a worthless site (to me at least) and I found no useful info there. Second...please don't just say "well you could use a Sound Font" unless your going to explain what it is and how to use it! I've seen many other people ask similar questions on this forum and I've seen this over and over again. To me its like a person asking how to get to the post office, and people saying "use a car"...only you don' t know what a car is let alone how to drive one or where the post office is! Also, I am currently out of work, so going out and buying a load of software without know what it does, how to use it or if I even really need it, is out of the question. All I want to do is expand a little bit beyond general midi...something that will provide a little bit more profesional sounding results without having to learn Chinese or having to go out and buy a Korg Triton (which I honestly would love to have, but for $3000+ I would get a new mixing board or 2 and a new guitar instead).

Maybe if someone could just explain what a "Sound Font" is and -how- to use one it Cakewalk, that would help some of us "midi newbies". I am aware that this is a ridculously huge subject and I understand people's reluctance to help, but if I really wanted to learn Chinese, I'd just buy more fortune cookies! I also know that not -all- of this stuff is that terribly hard to learn as I've seen allot of these dips*it individual's who do stuff like rap and hiphop who do it -all- on a keyboard and have no musicial abilities at all on anything other then a sequencer and most of the time can't even speak english without saying "yo dawg" every other sentence (LOL)...if -they- can use it, it can't be -that- terribly hard to do some basic stuff!

I know this sounds a lot like an attitude problem...and it is I guess, but I truely am greatful for assistance here (and I'm sure others will be too!). Again though, please don't just post "goto midi.com" or "use a sound font"...if thats all your going to post or say, please save both of us the time....its -not- helpful.

Bright Blessing's & Gentle Breeze's
Jim
 
Lomitus, there's no such "rediculous" question here :D I've been there before, and I know how you feel. First, check this thead to help you understand Soundfonts.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68359&

Then you can go to the link duck provided you above. If you have any difficulties, we're there to help you. I've learnt so many things, sharing happines and pain in the board for years, and the only best way I can do to pay back the BBS is to help people around by sharing my limited knowledges. Glad to see if I can help.

You didn't mention what's your current soundcard. Using soundfonts, you certainly don't have to spend alot for gears. As I see you run CWPA 9, all you need is Soundfonts compatible soundcard (Creative SB Live! or Audigy will be great). Write latter for more info...

;)
Jaymz
 
Hi James & Duck,


First off, thanks for the info...I had done a search on this forum under soundfonts and did not see those posts...dunno...maybe I mis-spelled or something (it twas before my second cup of java this morning so anything is possible). I'll read thru this stuff tomorrow when I'm a little more coherent (the wife just came home from work and told me the van was broken -again-...just fixed everything Monday...rather po'd at the moment). I really am greatful for the intelligent replay!

As far as my sound card goes...I -was- using an Ensoniq (don't have the model handy at the moment), but I was having serious problems with it picking up noise from my CD-ROM's for some reason (and it only happens on this particular computer too). I was also having midi port conflicts when I was using the Ensoniq...actually that sound card was just a problem all the way around from day one. Since most of the stuff I do...or at least have done up to this point is all basic audio, for the moment at least I've switched over to the basic SB compatable thats built into my motherboard. Suprisingly, it has rather good sound quality for audio recording. I do most of my stuff "live"...aka real drums, guitar, bass, hand percussion, etc., and I'm just looking to get more into the midi stuff to add a little "fluff" if you will...strings and horns mainly and maybe some nice synth sounds as I go. I've thought about using "loops" for some of my stuff, but I guess I just can't really get past the idea that I'm "cheating"...using other peoples stuff and calling it my own etc.....its a mental issue, but for me a big one...for me at least. Anyways.... Other then being SB compatible and something like "AE47 complient" (or something like that acording to the motherboard install book...maybe it was AE97?), I don't really know all that much about the built in sound card really...I would -assume- that its capabilities are limited but I don't really know. The GM sounds aren't too bad really...sounds -a lot- better then the old ESS Audio card that I have on this machine which sounds like a "plunky old $20 Casio" (the studio machine is a seperate machine...deditacted DAW more or less). Beyond this, I really don't know what my sound card's capabilities are or even how to find out really. If it turns out to be a "big" issue, I can probably run the keyboard into the computer that I put the Ensoniq on (my studio CD server).....just need a longer cable.

Maybe this will help you to understand what I'm tryin to do a little more. I just layed down my own version of the infamous "Peter Gunn" theme (something I've wanted to do for years). As the track stands now, I have bass guitar, a guitar running thru an octive unit to double the bass (adds a nice little kick to the bass line), lead guitar doing most of the melody and a pretty nice synth sound from the Kawai to fill things out a little. What I would like to do is add some Blues Brothers-like/Henry Mancinin-like "horn chops" here and there. Wind instruments are not my forte' and either way I don't have access to a sax, trumpet and t-bone (someday). I played around with the GM instruments, but they just were not "convincing". I guess I'm trying to get as "real" of a sound as I can without actually havin the horns here (and again without using loops). From the little I've read so far, Sound Font's seem to be the way to go here, but again I will read more about it in the morning (maybe -after- I've had my coffee this time LOL!).

Again, thanks so much for the info and the replies...I really am greatful! I'm a pretty active member over on WholeNote.com and I feel the same way as James....I've had so many people help me there (especially in thier "Building & Repair" forum while I was learning how to do guitar refinishing, and I always try to help out and share what I've learned when ever I can. I had kind of gotten away from the HomeRecording forums for a couple of months because I had gotten busy with some other things. I guess I kinda tend to come and go here.

Anyways, thanks so much again...I'll look over that stuff in more detial in the morn and I'm sure I will have more questions after I do!

Bright Blessing's & Gentle Breeze's,
Jim
 
ok...no Sound Fonts, but I have found something else that works...

Hi James,
Ok...been working down in the studio all morning. Aparently my sound card does -not- support Sound Fonts as it appears disabled in Cakewalk (being disabled, I never noticed it was there to begin with). However, I've been going thru a box of software and such that a friend of mine gave me before he moved to Florida (I had done some guitar mod's for him) and found something -very- interesting...Native Instruments Absynth....unfortunatly...he kept the manuals (for the record this is the same person I got my copy of Cakewalk from...he kept the manual for that too!!! The package for the NI B4 is in there too, but no software...KILL KILL KILL!). Anyways, some really cool stuff here that I've been playing with, but has also raised some new questions.

First...latency. I am going thru this forum trying to find a solution to this, and I'll look thru the Cakewalk help files a little later today, but any help would be greatly apreciated. This is happening even with good ol General Midi. It's not -really- bad, but bad enough to be annoying. It's the old hit the key on the keyboard and the sound comes out the system about a half second behind. I know the last time I had this bugger hooked up, I didn't have this problem, but I don't remember which sound card I had had it hooked up to...thought it was this one, but.... I was also using "Music Time" (given to me by the same person) at the time, but have since taken that back off my system.

Second...and more importantly...how do I get these sounds into Cakewalk? The Absynth is a stand alone and when I have it running, it seems to "disable" my midi capabilites in Cakewalk. Is there some way that I can just run this as audio back into Cakewalk and record it that way? Once I have the "sound" I want, I'm kewl with recording it as audio...in fact I prefer it for the moment. I don't really need all the midi control do-hicky's or editing...I just want to be able to play it and record it.

I'll be playing with it more later today, but am truly greatful for any more info you can provide!

Thanks Again,
Jim
 
FYI- General Midi is just a term for sound modules that have their patches arranged in a specific way so that all the piano, drums, strings etc are in the same places so that midi arrangements can be easily swapped between different midi modules. It has nothing to do with the sound quality. In most cases though GM is used on consumer gear instead of pro gear so you are more likely to see crappy sounds on GM devices.

If you want better sound quality check out Reason 2 for soft synths or pick up some used midi keyboards and modules. Some of the older Korgs and Kurzweils still sound great and are relatively inexpensive.
 
Gee, I don't believe I've readed all your reply...

Yeah.. Tex is right. GM stands for compatibility, and most of the times, they sound "canned". Tex is also right about older keyboard. Say Korg X5D is one of the cool old keyboard with great sound :cool: If only you use SONAR (or even HomeStudio) instead Cake Pro 9, you can use the benefit of DXi. Specially LiveSynth Pro, which turns any soundcard into Soundfont compatible...

www.livesynth.com


;)
Jaymz
 
ok...next batch of questions....

Hi Guys,
Ok...yea I knew about the general midi thing meaning compatability...aka so if you record something on one puter, the piano part don't end up sounding like trumpet on another...got that. Also, I do have access to Sonar, but I'm a little reluctant about switching to it because everything I've seen says it works best with Windows 2000 and up. I -had- 2k on my system and ended up blowing if off again...its a major resource hog and I had some serious problems with it (probably due to resources). After I do my next hardware upgrade (which probably won't be for some time due to serious $ problems), I may look at Win2k again, but for the moment I'm stuck with 98SE.

Either way, I've pretty much given up on getting any decent sounds out of GM, but I've been playin with this Absynth on and off all day and have come up with some cool stuff...I've also figured out how to get it to record as MIDI in Cakewalk...I used the Hubis Loopback connector (neat little software/hardware gadget). As a result though, I have another batch of questions for ya'll!

Ok first and foremost...and this one should be pretty easy for you old pro's :-) Lets say I have gotten something recorded in Cakewalk done in MIDI...lets say I have it tweaked and mixed the way I want it...how get I get that to record now as audio? I seem to remember having this problem with another piece I did some time ago....I had just added some MIDI "seagulls" for abiance to the song that the rest had been done in audio, but when I went to mix it down, the seagulls weren't in the mix. Again, once I get it the way I like it, I'm not really worried about saving it as a MIDI file...I don't really use the "tweak" controls that much...I'm more concerened about it as audio so I can mix it with the rest of the audio stuff I do.

Secondly, I seem to be getting "noise" here and there in the MIDI tracks...just little "clicks" and "pops"...what would be causing that and how do I fix it?

Lastly...and this may or may not even be an issue....what I did in order to get the sounds from the Absynth to record in Cakewalk is, I used the Hubis Loopback connector. Seems to work great and I can route track one in Cakewalk to channel 1 etc...now the problem...say I want 3 different sounds on 3 different tracks...(please bear with me here...obviosly I'm just learning this)...right now I am using Channel 1 on track one, channel 2 on track 2, etc, but what the problem is is I have to have 3 copy's of Absynth open on my desktop...one set to each channel...is this normal? It seems that if I were doing an entire composistion this way, that it would end up tying up -a lot- of resources this way...? If I wanted say 10 different instruments, I'd have to have 10 copys of the Absynth open...one for each instrument. It does seem to work, but it doesn't seem to be the most efficient way of doing things (I hope this made sense LOL).

If I can get these problems solved, then I really don't think I need to go out and get another MIDI keyboard. This little Kawai seems to be doing pretty well for me for the most part. Not to mention, again the wife and I are having some -serious- money problems at the moment...new or used equipment is just out of the question...no can do...nadda...right now we can't afford to get groceries this week (yes...seriously). We may even have to dump the internet for a while just to have the extra $50 a month, but I won't know until the end of the month. This is why I was so upset last night when the wife said something on the van broke...we have no money at all for auto repairs. Right now I -have- to work with what I've got. I'm lucky in the software dept at least...a friend of mine recently moved to Florida. I had done some guitar repairs and modifications for him a while back and before he left, he gave me a very large box of mostly audio software that he had been using in his old studio (his then partner bought out the studio and replaced/upgraded -everything-). At the time he gave it to me, the only thing I needed really was the Cakewalk, but far be it from me to turn down "freebies". Since I'm getting more into this stuff now and have the time (I've been out of work since August...aka the money problems), seemed like a good time to start tryin to learn this stuff! Anyways.....

Thanks again for the help guys...I really am greatful!
BB's & GB's
Jim
 
Please tell me there is an easier way.....

Ok, I've found one way to record the midi as audio, but this really seems like I'm pulling teeth here....again I'm using the sounds from the Native Instrument's Absynth...-not- the sounds from my Kawai (its an older keyboard and while it does have some good useable stuff, the Absynth has some really nice "pro" sounds in it). I know I can run the audio output of my sound card back thru my mixing board and back into the PC and record the output as audio...this does work.....PLEASE tell me there is an easier way to do this!?!

I was almost thinking about just using another computer to do the MIDI stuff on and then just run that to my mixing board for audio input, but then I looked at the system requirements for Absynth and the studio system is the -only- system I have in the house that has the beef to run this program, so I am stuck with everything running on one computer. There has got to be an easier way to record the MIDI tracks to audio once their layed down. I've gone thru all of the Cakewalk help files and didn't see anything that was even close. I also looked thru this forum and saw one or two questions that looked similar to this, but no helpful answers...other then record it off the keyboard. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if I run this back into the Kawai and then use the line outs on the Kawai into the mixing board, won't the sounds in the Kawai be used instead of the Absynth sounds? I realize that MIDI is just a "sequence of events" for all intensive purposes, and I don't -think- that the "sound" from the Absynth would carry over into the Kawai(?)

I know I'm getting tired, frustrated and grouchy, but you'd think that someone in the world of computers, midi and software would try and come up with something thats easier to learn and use.....oye! Please tell there is an easier way to get the midi sounds converted to an audio file.....thanks!

BB's & GB's,
Jim
 
Yes, a much easier way. Bounce to disc.
The only thing is, I dont know if cakewalk has that feature.
 
" Bounce to disc.
The only thing is, I dont know if cakewalk has that feature"

I really don't want to sound rude or ungreatful...I am -always- greatful for useful assistance, but this tells me -nothing-. This comes back to what I said in the first post of this thread....I ask how to get to the post office and you say "use a car" but you say nothing about what a car is, how to drive one or what streets to use to get to the post office. I have been thru the Cakewalk help files and I see nothing like "bounce to disk"...I have options for mixing down audio, I have options for "bouncing tracks", etc., (which is disabled for MIDI) but it says nothing about how to convert MIDI to audio.....can we try this again? -PLEASE- keep in mind...although I have been a musician for 20 years, my experience with MIDI beyond GM it -2 days-...you have to -explain- what you mean, what software your talking about and how to do it...if I understood what "Bounce to disk" meant, I would not be asking these questions on a forum to begin with now would I? If you can't take the time to explain something then I will ask again to please save yourself the time and mine because it does not help.

Bright Blessing's & Gentle Breeze's,
Jim
 
figured it out

Thru the help of someone on a chat channel, I got the recording MIDI to audio figured out! For those that are following this thread or are having similar problems...here's what I did...an yea...it was simple once I realized the problem....

Basically just open your Windows "volume control" and goto the Recording section. I had mine set to line it of course since most of what I do is live audio. All you have to do is set it to your "stereo out"...aka the setting the is used for what you actually -hear-, then go back into Cakewalk and solo the MIDI track you want to record as audio. Set up a new track for audio and hit record! Simple as that (wish someone had of told me that in the first place). This also took care of the problem of having to have multiple copy's of Absynth open as well.

Only remaining problem is the occasion noise and clicks....any suggestions as to whats causing this and how to fix it?

Thanks!
Jim
 
Sorry about your financial issue :(

Many can cause noises...
These are threads about noises in Cakewalk...

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80286

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75621

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73997

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74712&highlight=Noise


MIDI to Audio using DXi (but I'm affraid you can't have DXi running on CWPA9 :( )

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78945

There's no other option to record audio comes from external MIDI devices to your puter but to route a cable to Line input of your soundcard, unless you have some kind like SPDIF or optical thingee feature on both the external MIDI devices and soundcard as a transfer media.

About the link above, some of them are long thread. You can click on everyone of them, and save those pages on your puter, and read latter while you're off line.

;)
Jaymz
 
Hi Jaymz,
Thanks for the replay. Actually yes I did find a way to record the midi as audio...I mentioned it in the above post. I wasn't trying to record the sounds from my keyboard...just using it as a controller to get the sounds out of absynth. I already had the midi track recorded as midi, just needed to get it converted to an audio track. I basically just switched my sound card's -record- property's over to the "stereo output" instead of "line in", setup a new audio track, solo'd the recorded midi track and hit "record"...wahla! The midi track is recorded to audio...worked like a charm! Found one of my old bud's on a chat channel and he clued me in....really simple once I knew how to do it (I felt a little stupid actually...I had looked right at that and never saw it). It also took care of the issue with having to have multiple copy's of Absynth open all the time. Now I record one track, copy it over to audio and do the next track. If I want to save the MIDI tracks for future reference, I just switch the midi channel on that track to a number not being used so that it don't cause a conflict. For the stuff I'm doing this is pretty much what I needed...gettin some really cool and -very- usable sounds without having to dump $3000 (which simply would not have happened) for a Korg Triton Studio :-)

I'll take a look at those links on the noise first thing in the morning...getting ready to go build a couple of bird houses with the wife at the moment. I almost have a feeling that the noise I"m getting has something to do with my sound card as it happens during playback, but again I'll get more into it tomorrow...it could even just be a cable issue or something. If worse comes to worse, I can even use a "crackle and pop remover" or vynal restoration plugin or somethign to take the noise back out once its in audio, but if I can avoid the noise in the first place, thats obviously the way to go.

Once I get the noise issue tackled, I think I'm good to go for the moment, so thanks for the help...I am greatful. I still have -a lot- to learn, and am sure I will be back later with more questions (LOL), but for the moment this gives me a lot of new stuff to play with. I still don't have the horns and strings sounds I was looking for, but I will tackle that after I've digested a little more of this stuff first...I'm sure it will have something to do with this mysterious thing called "samples", but one thing at a time. I may even download the Reason Demo in a day or two now that I have a better handle on this and see what I can do with that as well.

Thanks Again!
Jim
 
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