best way to retain high end?

[Farview]

I see no need nor desire in controling listeners' environment. I DO however believe that it's a good idea for a producer to KNOW his/her audience very well (in and out) or better say: to remain! being part of it.
Also, I would add here, in general: seeking CONTROL over every aspect within the production process maybe is the way to go, and it seems to be the most popular way, but it is NOT the only way.
You may view The Control Room as the place to control things, but I view it as a place to lose IT (control, that is) to do things.

I wasn't advocating taking control over the listeners environment, I was pointing out that you cannot predict the listeners environment. Even if you know for a fact that all of your audience listens in their car, no two cars sound alike and no two people will set their EQ the same way. The fact that you can't predict how your audience will be listening is what drives people to treat the control room. A well treated room takes the room out of the equation.

There's No such thing as incomplete question.

A question that doesn't have enough information is incomplete. A complete question would have enough information. That's how you can tell the difference.

 

[Dr ZEE]

I wasn't advocating taking control over the listeners environment, I was pointing out that you cannot predict the listeners environment...

I am responding to what you say, not to what you may mean. Even though I can guess, but how do I know for sure? So I choose to respond to what's on paper. You've said "you can't control" - I've responded. If you've said "you can't predict" - I would respond differently (maybe ).
So, as for "prediction".
No, you can not predict, but you can be close to "knowing" it (your audience) if you choose to know it or if you ARE a one of the listener of your audience ALREADY and always have been. I know, that such situation would rarely be applicable if you produce for other musicians with different preferences, genres, different audience, different demands and expectations etc... But this is rather uncomon for home recording, where self-production of specific kind of music for rather well known and well udnerstood by producer specific kind of targeted (or prefered) audience is the substance. The goal and process here can be described as: "by any means necessary and every step of the way: From Me Direct To You", and the goal is to treat MY audience right ("I know what You like and How you like it and so Here You Have it" - style). Whether the audience is broad, narrow, miserably small or even audience-of-one - it does not matter - same idea, same principle, same goal.

Even if you know for a fact that all of your audience listens in their car, no two cars sound alike and no two people will set their EQ the same way.

That's why I've said: "There are rooms, and then there are rooms". That's the way it is and will be. You can discuss rooms to the end of your life... again, if you choose to do so..., but you don't have to. At the end you'll have to choose the room anyway. (Same way as you choose monitors). Designing your room certain way or Treating your room with materials is a form of choosing the room. (putting headphones on is a form of choosing the room and monitors at the same time in that sense ).

The fact that you can't predict how your audience will be listening is what drives people to treat the control room...

I don't think that fact is a "driving reason" for acoustic treatment of control room at all, and if it IS, then it's rather a very strange one. Speaking of "not making sense"

A well treated room takes the room out of the equation...

I disagree with such statement if it is being presented as an absolute. As an absolute, one can say: "A well treated room is the room which meets the designer's (the person who treated that room) objectives".
If the designer's objective is to take the room out of equation then he (the designer) has good reason to make a statement: "I have treated this room. After conducting series of experiments and measurments I have come to conclusion that this "room is taken out of equation". This room is treated well." (what ever the hell the "equation" may be in the mind of the designer and what ever parameters on the pages of his investigative report have led the designer to the conclusion, that " the room is out" , but that's the whole another issue )
And that's about as far as it goes. This is all fine with me.
If you decide to develop your producer/sound engineer artist's skills and do all your work inside of a specifically desined isolated and rather extremely unnatural environments, - that's fine. But it's just one of the possible ways of doing it. No more no less. It is not the best nor easiest way to achieve the main goal.
But then again, you never know what the producer's goal is. For some it may be satisfaction of coming in and out the room clients, for some - the room itself, for some - just keep myself busy, anything goes as long as it keeps me away from that Rum.... so? You never know, that is.
*********

A question that doesn't have enough information is incomplete. A complete question would have enough information. That's how you can tell the difference.

The question is what the question is. The amount of "information in it" has nothing to do with being complete or incomplete. By its very nature questions are not to provide information, but to gather it. (That's from technical point of view, of course, - not from philosophical, not from artistic and not from religious )

 

[Farview]

I am responding to what you say, not to what you may mean. Even though I can guess, but how do I know for sure? So I choose to respond to what's on paper. You've said "you can't control" - I've responded. If you've said "you can't predict" - I would respond differently (maybe ).

This was the complete thought

You can't worry about the listeners environment, you have no control over it and you can't predict what it will be. So you make your mixing environment such that you know you can hear everything somewhat evenly.

You need to read all of it. I said exactly that. You can not control or predict. (unlike sound for film, where movie theaters are laid out in a very specific manner)

So, as for "prediction".
No, you can not predict, but you can be close to "knowing" it (your audience) if you choose to know it or if you ARE a one of the listener of your audience ALREADY and always have been.
I know, that such situation would rarely be applicable if you produce for other musicians with different preferences, genres, different audience, different demands and expectations etc... But this is rather uncomon for home recording, where self-production of specific kind of music for rather well known and well udnerstood by producer specific kind of targeted (or prefered) audience is the substance. The goal and process here can be described as: "by any means necessary and every step of the way: From Me Direct To You", and the goal is to treat MY audience right ("I know what You like and How you like it and so Here You Have it" - style). Whether the audience is broad, narrow, miserably small or even audience-of-one - it does not matter - same idea, same principle, same goal.

Even when I'm producing my own stuff, I can't predict, or know for certain, which car I will be driving when I'm listening to it next week. Unless you plan on only listening to this in a set environment, your argument makes no sense.

That's why I've said: "There are rooms, and then there are rooms". That's the way it is and will be. You can discuss rooms to the end of your life... again, if you choose to do so..., but you don't have to. At the end you'll have to choose the room anyway. (Same way as you choose monitors). Designing your room certain way or Treating your room with materials is a form of choosing the room. (putting headphones on is a form of choosing the room and monitors at the same time in that sense ).

Then what are you arguing about? If 'treating a room' and 'finding a room that just happens to work for you' are the same thing, you've been arguing for nothing.

I don't think that fact is a "driving reason" for acoustic treatment of control room at all, and if it IS, then it's rather a very strange one.

It's exactly why it is done. Why else would you do it?

I disagree with such statement if it is being presented as an absolute. As an absolute, one can say: "A well treated room is the room which meets the designer's (the person who treated that room) objectives".
If the designer's objective is to take the room out of equation then he (the designer) has good reason to make a statement: "I have treated this room. After conducting series of experiments and measurments I have come to conclusion that this "room is taken out of equation". This room is treated well." (what ever the hell the "equation" may be in the mind of the designer and what ever parameters on the pages of his investigative report have led the designer to the conclusion, that " the room is out"

My statement takes all that into account. Just because you need everything spelled out for you doesn't mean it isn't clear to everyone else. (why would I be talking about a poorly treated room, or one that didn't meet the designers objective?)

If you decide to develop your producer/sound engineer artist's skills and do all your work inside of a specifically desined isolated and rather extremely unnatural environments, - that's fine.

There are no 'natural' listening environments. Everyplace is different.

The question is what the question is. The amount of "information in it" has nothing to do with being complete or incomplete.

The question "what is this?" is incomplete because you don't know what 'this' refers to. It is an incomplete thought. When you put a question mark at the end of an incomplete thought, it becomes an incomplete question.

 

[Dr ZEE]

oh boy...
this is really something. lol
ah, just for fun of it...

This was the complete thought You need to read all of it. I said exactly that. You can not control or predict..

You've said what you've said. If you've said "control or predict", then that would be what you've said, but you've said: "you have no control over it and you can't predict what it will be." Your line suggests that one can not "predict" due to having no control over the event/process. You've made your point presenting "Control" as prime aspect and Prediction as follow up of the prime aspect. So I just follow your line in my respond.
arghhhhhhh, this is really painfully boring sh*t I must admit.
And the reason it's boring because it gets to the point where the same crap is getting flipped over again and again.

Even when I'm producing my own stuff, I can't predict, or know for certain, which car I will be driving when I'm listening to it next week. Unless you plan on only listening to this in a set environment, your argument makes no sense..

You have missed my "argument" from the very begining (your first reply is the best illustration of it), that's why it does not make any sense to you. The main argument is: The key is not in what kind of monitoring system you use/design, but in how well you know it (know it as Producer-Artist! (not as phisicist/engineer/technician), among the whole bunch of other aspects.). And the notion, that "The One and Only! Correct and Easiest and the Best way to Enable Yourself to Make Great Mixes (with out any questions!) is to make/build/design/choose/evaluate-and-treat your monitoring system (monitoring section of your production setup) CERTAIN way" is flat out false. There are no rules, period. Some people believe there are rules and do follow them, which is fine with me.

It's exactly why it is done..

Are you sure you know 100% why exactly it is being done by other recordists/producers? Well, you sound like you are. Interesting way of viewing the world. Good attitude - that's for sure.

Why else would you do it?.

Why people DO things certain way? I have no idea. Every person have his/her reason(s). You may want to Ask Johnny. I may be wrong, of course, but something tells me that Johnny have not followed the objective to take the room out of equation or better say out of picture. Actually, Johnny's objective seems to be quite opposite to that.

 

[Farview]

Your line suggests that one can not "predict" due to having no control over the event/process. [/b] It doesn't make a difference to the point I made. The point being 'you can not predict and/or control' (control and/or predict) The outcome and point are the same.

There are no rules, period.

There are no rules until you define what you want the outcome to be. As soon as you decide that, you are locked into the techniques, procedures and rules that will facilitate that outcome.

Are you sure you know 100% why exactly it is being done by other recordists/producers? Well, you sound like you are. Interesting way of viewing the world. Good attitude - that's for sure.

That's the only reason to do it. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that too.

Why people DO things certain way? I have no idea. Every person have his/her reason(s).

You didn't answer the question. If this is an honest answer, I can see why you are against room treatments. It's because you don't know what they are used for.

You may want to Ask Johnny. I may be wrong, of course, but something tells me that Johnny have not followed the objective to take the room out of equation or better say out of picture. Actually, Johnny's objective seems to be quite opposite to that.

Looking at that picture, it seem he has done just that. All the treatments are placed in such a way so that they will not let the reflections bounce back to the mix position. There is also bass trapping in the corners. That way the room is not a factor in the mix. It's hard to get a good idea of the dimensions of the room because of the fish-eye lens, but it seems like he has done it right. What aren't you getting?

 

[Dr ZEE]

If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that too....I can see why you are against room treatments. It's because you don't know what they are used for...

O.K. I don't know what I'm talking about. You've made your point.

Looking at that picture, ...There is also bass trapping in the corners.

Good catch! You sure DO know your sh.... stuff . Excellent!

.....
.....
.....
oh, and yes! As soon as you know - You are locked. I've got that one too.
Thanks God I don't know a thing! I still can go anywhere I want.

 

[Dr ZEE]

O.K. I don't know what I'm talking about. You've made your point.

Yeah! And, here:
An expert in acoustic treatment argues that a proper recording studio is much more than a collection of great gear. , that a word from an expert, of course!, by the name Ethan.
As for my word on Ethan's enlightment, I only can say: "Nice cat, Ethan!" And, btw, thank You, Ethan, for FINALLY letting me know that I can't hear accurately.
As for Lee's word on all of this... hmmmmm, hah hah, gotta re-post this: Lee said : "Every night when I go to bad I change into a fish."
As for Joe's word. Who knows. Joe is dead.
***********
oh, and one more thing, Ethan, using your own words: If you sense some sarcasm, you're correct.

 

[Dr ZEE]

AND! I just have to post this here again, just by the way.
For guys who "got it", yet, still can't get what "Attitude IS EVERYTHING" means. For guys who want to DO IT RIGHT.
So, just as another example, visit Liam Watson & Toe Rag Studios if you have not done it yet. And , yes, Liam also got his rooms treated ... and you can see how , among other things done "by the book". Take time going through the article, in the name of expansion of your views or just for entertainment.

/later

 

[Dr ZEE]

HAH-HAH

You are the one that doesn't get it. So much so that you can't even fathom not getting it. It's truly sad.

Here we go again Yep, that's the anonymous Johnny, who keeps sending me "reputation" notes.
Don't be so sad, dude.
Yo, Johnny, I can see why you're sad and probably pissed as well. I understand it sucks when you are working hard studying and doing it by the book and then seeing a Snoring Fish going down the history book as a Legend or seeing a ToeRag-freak producing No1 "hits".
Don't be so sad. Take a break. Go traveling. Swing over some shows or museums of art or something. May I suggest This Place . Take your silver-case acoustic analyzer ProKit with you. I mean why wasting time. Test some rooms. Learn something new. Find out wat was wrong with The Control Room . Knowledge is Light! - you'll be happy again.
.....
.....
.....be happy again?
hmmmmmmmm.... ????, or maybe you'll fall into permanent deep depression. hmmmmmm.... that may happen too. it depends.

 

[Farview]

AND! I just have to post this here again, just by the way.
For guys who "got it", yet, still can't get what "Attitude IS EVERYTHING" means. For guys who want to DO IT RIGHT.
So, just as another example, visit Liam Watson & Toe Rag Studios if you have not done it yet. And , yes, Liam also got his rooms treated ... and you can see how , among other things done "by the book". Take time going through the article, in the name of expansion of your views or just for entertainment.

/later

Get what? I read the article, he's not doing anything that different.

 

[FALKEN]

so i just made a new recording this week

its about 11 songs; did drums last weekend, guitars this week, and bass and vocals yesterday. I recorded everything really bright. I used condensors on the drums. I got the amps sounding bright. I used GP9 with no NR. It was too much bright. my bass player and I did a rough mix before I drove him home. threw the cd in the car, and.......what the crap????

all of the high end was gone. (including the hiss!) it was unreal.

in order to get my stereo to sound like the monitors did, I had to put the treble on 10.

in addition, there is a HUGE bump on the bass right around the low G note that is about 10 db louder than any other note.

Now,

I know what you are thinking...

BASS TRAPS

I already did that and although things improved this is a bit ridiculous.

I promise you its not my eq settings because I didn't use any eq. I just captured it bright and printed it to the computer.......


this is really annoying.......


how could things really be that muddy in my car but not in the control room??? its almost unreal.

 

[Dr ZEE]

I know what you are thinking...

BASS TRAPS.

Not me
My thought is: "Get a better car"

 

[Farview]

how could things really be that muddy in my car but not in the control room??? its almost unreal.

Is it just your car, or is it or is it everywhere else? Do commercial CDs sound muddy in your car? Do they sound overly bright in your control room?

You have got to find some sort of baseline so you know what's going on.

 

[FALKEN]

Is it just your car, or is it or is it everywhere else? Do commercial CDs sound muddy in your car? Do they sound overly bright in your control room?

You have got to find some sort of baseline so you know what's going on.

my bass player is going to get back to me later tonight on whats up but he thinks it might be the car.

which is odd because most stuff sounds good there. even most of the mixes I have done.

commercial mixes are about the same brightness in my studio.

this is like a weird isolated event...more like the last two recordings....the last ten before that were fine....

I had a thought that maybe it is a low frequency problem.

maybe 1/2 the frequency of the low G.

and the bass's low G is acting like the overtone to whatever is going on down below my monitors range. maybe a high pass filter will fix the problem.

so far this is the only thing that is reasonable that I have come up with.

 

[Dr ZEE]

I am going to make it public here, so everyone knows what we are dealing here with.
This is the latest "reputation note" I've just received from anonymous Johnny

Saw your picture. Are you from the Blues Brothers or Sha-Na-Na?

O.K.
The answer is - Neither.
So? Happy now?
Now who ever you are, anonymous Johnny, I don't need to call you a name, because it's obvious what you are. Now, you can go back making "perfect" mixes in your transparent studio.
**********
Speaking of "transparent" studios, here's a short tale for you:

On the day, when Engineer Johnny finally has upgraded the last component of his studio setup to a perfectly acurate (transparent) one, He has found himself empty-handed and all alone. It was just Him, standing in the middle of endless possibilities with Complete Control over the endless list of pure and cold parameters.
Johnny screamed: "Auuuuwooo! Is anybody there!" But not a single Ghost has replied. Nobody was there.
Nobody was there to interfere. Nobody was there to disturb.
He was set free.
He screamed: "I'm free!!!!!" - not a single echo has come back.
He was the Creator.
He screamed: "I AM The Creator!" - nobody heard the scream.
- Awooo! Anybody there?
- Silence.
- Awooo! Anybody?! Hey-Yo!!!! Aaaaaa! Ohooo-Hooo?
- Silence.
....
....
Johnny fell on his knees.
....
....
- Silence.



/later

 

[Farview]

You do realize that you can't give rep to the same person twice in this short of a time. 'Johnny' has to be more than one person.

 

[FALKEN]

I went through the same thing (note rep power).

all it means is that johnny has more than one username.

 

[Dr ZEE]

'Johnny' has to be more than one person.

'Engineer Johnny'? He IS more than one person.

 

[Farview]

I am going to make it public here, so everyone knows what we are dealing here with.
This is the latest "reputation note" I've just received from anonymous Johnny

O.K.
The answer is - Neither.
So? Happy now?
Now who ever you are, anonymous Johnny, I don't need to call you a name, because it's obvious what you are. Now, you can go back making "perfect" mixes in your transparent studio.
**********
Speaking of "transparent" studios, here's a short tale for you:

On the day, when Engineer Johnny finally has upgraded the last component of his studio setup to a perfectly acurate (transparent) one, He has found himself empty-handed and all alone. It was just Him, standing in the middle of endless possibilities with Complete Control over the endless list of pure and cold parameters.
Johnny screamed: "Auuuuwooo! Is anybody there!" But not a single Ghost has replied. Nobody was there.
Nobody was there to interfere. Nobody was there to disturb.
He was set free.
He screamed: "I'm free!!!!!" - not a single echo has come back.
He was the Creator.
He screamed: "I AM The Creator!" - nobody heard the scream.
- Awooo! Anybody there?
- Silence.
- Awooo! Anybody?! Hey-Yo!!!! Aaaaaa! Ohooo-Hooo?
- Silence.
....
....
Johnny fell on his knees.
....
....
- Silence.



/later

Jeezus! Stop whining and get some counseling or something.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Jeezus! Stop whining and get some counseling or something.

Wow! Sillyhat said: "Jeezus". Wow!
Who's whining here?
I'm having fun here. It's fun to see what's under the hat.
Got it?
I would not hope so. Nor I really give a crap if you get anything here. You are nothing - you are an empty page in an instructional guide. You've got the hat, that's for sure.
Now, you can go study some more manuals and then come back to share your "expertise". Enjoy yourself.


/later