Best mic pair below $1000 for classical piano (or DP vs. Oktava)

[pohaku]

If you decide you want omni, here's an option:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear...ds/181372-fs-avenson-sto-2s-matched-pair.html

You may need to register with GS to see the classified section (it's free).

No relationship to the seller.

 

[Marik]

Very much appreciated, Marik. Excellent performances, instrument, hall and recordings.

May I ask what mics were used? I really that much more than just good mics is at work here, of course! Yet I can't help wondering.

The problem with MS recording in my case is my relatively low budget: Interface and mics shouldn't cost above $1,500, and under such constraints I doubt I could afford decent interface/pre-amp with more than two inputs.

For MS all you need is two inputs--record M and S separately on each channel and then you can matrix in the program.

Both recordings were made with custom mics I built myself--the omnies were made around capsules from SP C4, and the MS with cardioid/Fig8 pair of ribbons.

With your budget and the fact you are recording straight to the computer I'd suggest to get a matched pair of SP C4, which come with both, cardioid and omni capsules, and get a ribbon mic.
This should be quite adequate and will cover a very wide range of miking techniques, including MS, ORTF NOS, A-B, Jeklin, etc. It will give you an excellent platform for getting experienced with miking the piano, getting used to using how microphone positioning and different techniques work for different repertoire and/or different recording enviroment. In the end this is much more important than equipment you use. It will take quite some time until you will find your experience has overgrown your setup.
In any case, you will need pay much much more to get any real noticable improvement.


Best, M

 

[Simman]

Thanks to all of you.

I have not heard a single negative comment about the MC930's – a good sign. I wish I could hear a few piano samples, however. Nowhere to be found, unfortunately...

I wonder why no one mentions the Oktavamod MK-012. Is it overrated? Is it overpriced (around $800 for the pair)?

The same goes for the DPA4061. It is marketed as a piano set by the manufacturer, but what holds me off is the eccentric form factor (miniatures), the lack of piano samples on the internet, and the scarcity of comments in the forums.

As for whether I want omnis or cardios, I'm not really sure yet. Otto implies that I should definitely opt for omni's. But then some of the most succesful piano mics have been cardio's. What do you all think?

What I want above all is faithful transients and accurate decay curves. This is what the piano sound is primarily about! My most common complaints are
1) that the piano decay is too short (making the sound "clunky")
2) that the dynamics are not natural (too much or too little contrast, unrealistic decay curves)
3) that the transient (hammer striking the string) is exaggerated/distorted and
4) that every note is accompanied by a certain noise that resembles blowing air on the microphone.

As a second priority, I appreciate a strong "presence" (no distance) and great detail/nuance.

Maybe I'm asking for too much for less than $1000.

Tempted to go with the MC930's from what I hear, anyway, although until yesterday I was about to pull the trigger and get the Oktavamods.

You might want to check this out. http://www.oktavamodshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=36

Read and follow the link to gearslutz for audio samples.

 

[macula]

For MS all you need is two inputs--record M and S separately on each channel and then you can matrix in the program.

Thank you once again, Marik. Your impressive work speaks for itself; one rarely finds someone with a true understanding of classical piano sound. I am fortunate to have access to someone with such skills, so forgive me for bombarding you with some more questions–your generosity is much appreciated.

1. Why do you recommend the SP C4s, as opposed to other mics in the same price range?

2. These are really inexpensive mics (~$400 a pair). This is great news, of course! But shall I assume, based on what you wrote, that spending up to an additional $600 on microphones would not significantly increase the potential recording quality? Could you give a couple of more examples of "classical piano-friendly" mics below $1000 in addition to the C4s?

3. Any recommendations for a ribbon microphone to partner with the C4s for MS recording?

4. Considering the potential of the Apogee Duet interface, after what price level does microphone quality begin to be irrelevant? Is the interface too weak, for example, for an expensive microphone such as the AKG414B-XLS? Or the DPA 4050, which I can get for around $1000 a pair?

5. If I won the lottery and had up to $1,500-$2,000 to spend on mics, what mics would you suggest? Would you recommend the AKG 414B-XLS, for example?

Once again, thank you!

 

[antichef]

That M-S piano recording was incredible. I wouldn't have guessed ribbons.

 

[Marik]

That M-S piano recording was incredible. I wouldn't have guessed ribbons.

Why wouldn't you? Have you heard condensers that smooth?
As I said earlier the M is a cardioid ribbon.
Here is another track from the same CD:

Thank you once again, Marik. Your impressive work speaks for itself; one rarely finds someone with a true understanding of classical piano sound. I am fortunate to have access to someone with such skills, so forgive me for bombarding you with some more questions–your generosity is much appreciated.

1. Why do you recommend the SP C4s, as opposed to other mics in the same price range?

'Cause I recorded with them and stock (unmodified) they worked quite well for the piano. Besides, they come in matched pair with set of omni capsules.

2. These are really inexpensive mics (~$400 a pair). This is great news, of course! But shall I assume, based on what you wrote, that spending up to an additional $600 on microphones would not significantly increase the potential recording quality? Could you give a couple of more examples of "classical piano-friendly" mics below $1000 in addition to the C4s?

Another my (absolute) budget favorite is a highly modified MXL603. Those are actually very interesting mics. The electronics are a famous Schoeps circuit (good copy), and the capsules are a copy of Neumann KM84. Stock, the mics lack some bass, but when modified they can sound quite amazing--very neutral, with excellent bass, flat response, etc.

Here is a recording done with those using ORTF. I have to say, this particular recording probably does not do them justice, as the recording conditions were awfull. It was an International Piano Competition and for esthetics reasons they did not let me place the mics in front of the instrument, so they were some 20' on the side of the hall, close to a wall. Still, I think they represented the sound of Bosendorfer Imperial and its powerful bass quite faithfully:

3. Any recommendations for a ribbon microphone to partner with the C4s for MS recording?

For this one please contact me privately.

4. Considering the potential of the Apogee Duet interface, after what price level does microphone quality begin to be irrelevant? Is the interface too weak, for example, for an expensive microphone such as the AKG414B-XLS? Or the DPA 4050, which I can get for around $1000 a pair?

You see, your setup is only good as its weakest link. The use of interface for the recording by itself is already a weak link (no matter how good it is). But the weakest link as I see it (sorry to be brutally honest) is your 6' Yamaha and upright in a highly reverberant room. I just don't see much sense to suggest you getting Schoeps, DPA, or Josephson to record through interface in such conditions.

5. If I won the lottery and had up to $1,500-$2,000 to spend on mics, what mics would you suggest? Would you recommend the AKG 414B-XLS, for example?

Oh God, no. I tried those a few times and for piano they consistantly were horrable. In any case, with piano I prefer to stay small diaphragm mics, or ribbons.
IMO, if you ever win a lottery, treat yourself nicely--get a bigger piano--I never heard any small grands on recordings having a nice bass.

Best, M

 

[macula]

You see, your setup is only good as its weakest link. The use of interface for the recording by itself is already a weak link (no matter how good it is). But the weakest link as I see it (sorry to be brutally honest) is your 6' Yamaha and upright in a highly reverberant room. I just don't see much sense to suggest you getting Schoeps, DPA, or Josephson to record through interface in such conditions.
...
IMO, if you ever win a lottery, treat yourself nicely--get a bigger piano--I never heard any small grands on recordings having a nice bass.

Thanks once more, Marik, for the generous advice.

There is nothing brutal in recognizing that my piano is bad. As you surely know, the best pianos are usually owned by non-pianists -- a bitter truth, and one I will have to live with for a few more years at least, I am sure.

Undoubtedly, with this instrument (and in an excessively reverbant room) I cannot expect to produce an aesthetically pleasing recording. I do understand your view, then, that it does not make sense to spend more than a few hundreds of dollars on gear. At the same time, however, I am interested in recording whatever sound I can make -- the sound of that bad piano in the lousy room -- with great accuracy. These will not be public recordings, yet I would like them to capture what someone in the room hears when I play, as faithfully as possible within my budget. This was my motivation for asking you what microphones you would recommend in a somewhat higher price bracket (e.g. max $1000-$1200 for the pair).

On another note, you wrote that recording through an interface to a computer is doomed beforehand. Bear with my ignorance, but what would be the better alternative in a small, portable studio?

I will write to you privately, as you asked, regarding the ribbons.

Thank you!

 

[leddy]

Beyerdynamic MC930, one the warmest and smoothest sounding mics on the market. Loads of detail and no hyped high end making it a terrific choice for micing a piano.

The high end is certainly hyped, it's just hyped higher up than most other mics. Mine are +4db at around 12k.

I agree that the detail is stunning, and I also love them on piano. But I would not call them "warm". They might be a touch bright for classical piano, or they might be just right depending on the hall.

One huge benefit of the MC930's for classical piano would be the massive output of these mics, which helps keep the noise way down.