Best mic pair below $1000 for classical piano (or DP vs. Oktava)

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macula

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am a good professional classical pianist but a newbie in recording technology. Please help me overcome my pre-purchase indecisiveness!

I am looking for the best possible matched pair of mics below $1,000 to connect with an Apogee Duet FW interface running on Macbook 2.4GHz with 4GB of RAM (I haven't bought the Apogee yet, but I doubt there is a better interface in that price range). Which one do you think is best:

1. Oktava (or Michael Jolly's OktavaMod) MK-012
2. DPA 4061 kit
3. Any other options? Unfortunately I cannot afford a Schoepps or Gefell pair.

Thank you!
 
Call Full Compass in Madison,WI and ask for a price on a matched pair of Beyer MC930s. (608) 831-7330. Should be in the very low $700s. They have a web site, but will only give you their best price over the phone (MAP issues and the like). I have pairs of AT-4051s, AT-4053s, Josephson C-42s, GT-44s and Beyer MCE93s. I'd be looking at the MC930s if I was buying a pair of SDs today (instead of the mics I now have or any others in your price range).
 
macula said:
am a good professional classical pianist but a newbie in recording technology. Please help me overcome my pre-purchase indecisiveness!

I am looking for the best possible matched pair of mics below $1,000 ...
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So it appears want to use a pair of true omni mikes, right? I'm not sure the answer is obvious, given your price range. Of course it would still require some listening on your part if the budget was $4000! :) Do you plan to mike inside the lid, just a little outside or farther away? That will affect the amount of high end emphasis, or lack thereof, that you want.

The decent models in this price range have not sold well over the years and seem to end up discontinued: Shure SM-80, EV RE-55 and AT 4049 are just a few examples.

A pair of AT 4050s (not a true omni but a good multi-pattern mike) would give you a lot of options to experiment with, though you might have to do a fair amount of searching to find a pair of them new for under $1000.

If you like a little high end emphasis, there is the Shure KSM-141. And of course, if the slightly higher 20 dB self-noise spec is OK for you, there is the new Naiant mike, the X-C, at a whopping $32 each.

David Josephson tells me he hopes to make a C-41 at some point which would be the omni version of his C-42 but says the capsule is "difficult" so you'll have to wait on that one. I seem to recall a few other newer brands are marketing omnis in or close to this price range and they all seem to advertise in the back section of Tape Op, but I can't seem to recall the names, and I'm not sure how they perform.

FYI, I'm finding that a pair of omnis inside the lid plus a figure-8 outside the piano combine to make a good sound.

Gee, I'm afraid this isn't at all helpful, so I'll just quit while I'm behind. :)

Cheers,

Otto
 
Beyerdynamic MC930, one the warmest and smoothest sounding mics on the market. Loads of detail and no hyped high end making it a terrific choice for micing a piano.

If you can find a pair of Elation KM201s mics, they also sound incredible on piano and classical guitar. They sometimes pop up on eBay.
 
My vote goes to KM-184's, AKG 460's, or Crown PZM's (not the soundgrabber series!)
 
Thanks to all of you.

I have not heard a single negative comment about the MC930's – a good sign. I wish I could hear a few piano samples, however. Nowhere to be found, unfortunately...

I wonder why no one mentions the Oktavamod MK-012. Is it overrated? Is it overpriced (around $800 for the pair)?

The same goes for the DPA4061. It is marketed as a piano set by the manufacturer, but what holds me off is the eccentric form factor (miniatures), the lack of piano samples on the internet, and the scarcity of comments in the forums.

As for whether I want omnis or cardios, I'm not really sure yet. Otto implies that I should definitely opt for omni's. But then some of the most succesful piano mics have been cardio's. What do you all think?

What I want above all is faithful transients and accurate decay curves. This is what the piano sound is primarily about! My most common complaints are
1) that the piano decay is too short (making the sound "clunky")
2) that the dynamics are not natural (too much or too little contrast, unrealistic decay curves)
3) that the transient (hammer striking the string) is exaggerated/distorted and
4) that every note is accompanied by a certain noise that resembles blowing air on the microphone.

As a second priority, I appreciate a strong "presence" (no distance) and great detail/nuance.

Maybe I'm asking for too much for less than $1000.

Tempted to go with the MC930's from what I hear, anyway, although until yesterday I was about to pull the trigger and get the Oktavamods.
 
If you do want omnis (I was assuming cardioids) the AT-4049s are very nice. Same amplifier as the 4051 and 4053, but with an omni capsule. I have a pair of those as well. BTW, AFAIK, AT does not do matched pairs. Like Neumann, they claim that their manufacturing tolerances are tight enough that a regular pair should do.

Another consideration, although I've never used them, are the Avenson STO-2 mics. Omni measurement mics that have received good reviews.
 
macula said:
Thanks to all of you.

I have not heard a single negative comment about the MC930's – a good sign. I wish I could hear a few piano samples, however. Nowhere to be found, unfortunately...

I wonder why no one mentions the Oktavamod MK-012. Is it overrated? Is it overpriced (around $800 for the pair)?

The same goes for the DPA4061. It is marketed as a piano set by the manufacturer, but what holds me off is the eccentric form factor (miniatures), the lack of piano samples on the internet, and the scarcity of comments in the forums.

As for whether I want omnis or cardios, I'm not really sure yet. Otto implies that I should definitely opt for omni's. But then some of the most succesful piano mics have been cardio's. What do you all think?

What I want above all is faithful transients and accurate decay curves. This is what the piano sound is primarily about! My most common complaints are
1) that the piano decay is too short (making the sound "clunky")
2) that the dynamics are not natural (too much or too little contrast, unrealistic decay curves)
3) that the transient (hammer striking the string) is exaggerated/distorted and
4) that every note is accompanied by a certain noise that resembles blowing air on the microphone.

As a second priority, I appreciate a strong "presence" (no distance) and great detail/nuance.

Maybe I'm asking for too much for less than $1000.

Tempted to go with the MC930's from what I hear, anyway, although until yesterday I was about to pull the trigger and get the Oktavamods.
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Dear Macula,

I am a concert pianist myself (DMA and also have MM from Moscow Conservatory) and record exclusively piano and worked with some pretty big stars on quite a few comercial CDs.

I am sure many folks here will give you a lot of excellent advices as for which microphones are good and which are not.

But let me ask you what piano do you have and what is your room. This will greatly help to determine what microphone techniques to use and in a turn what would be the mics.
Another point I'd like to make is what repertoire you plan to record. Definitely, the sound for Scarlatti or Bach would be very different than say, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Rachmaninov, or Prokofiev.

Moreover, may I suggest the miking techniques and esp. positioning will be much more important than the mics themselves. My two favorite techniques are a pair of omnies with Jecklin disk, or MS. In some situations I also use ORTF. If you are interested I can post a couple examples to hear the difference.

From your description of what you want it is apparent that you are using a close miking, which might be good for jazz or pop, but is absolute no no for classical piano.

Best, M
 
We have a steinway D in our auditorium which has ties to our studio, so I like to record in there a lot just noodling around on the piano using different setups, and I have to say I've gotten some great results out of sE's 2200a mic, its really full bodied, no harsh high end, gives me some great stuff.

I could also suggest the CAD M179, which although I've never tried, gets nothing but great reviews around here and is dubbed as an "all purpose" mic...

To the guy who suggest AT 4050's, what placement have you tried? Everything I've tried with our 4050's always sounds awful...:mad:
 
Marik said:
Dear Macula,
From your description of what you want it is apparent that you are using a close miking, which might be good for jazz or pop, but is absolute no no for classical piano.
Best, M
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Hello Marik,

Many thanks for your response. Indeed, it would be terrific if you could post a few samples. As you noticed, I am a beginner in recording techniques and I still fall victim to what seem to others to be obvious pitfalls.

I primarily record on two pianos, a well-voiced 2.00 meter Yamaha grand. Sometimes, however, I practice on a good upright Yamaha, and I would to make "working" recordings of those sessions, as well.

As for the music, I cannot narrow it down too much. It includes the entire canon from 17th to 20th century composers, with an emphasis on the 19th century Germans (Schumann, Brahms).

Thank you once again.
 
macula said:
As for whether I want omnis or cardios, I'm not really sure yet. Otto implies that I should definitely opt for omni's. But then some of the most succesful piano mics have been cardio's. What do you all think?
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Sorry, I assumed you wanted omnis based on the DPA mikes you were looking at along with the Oktava, which is available with omni capsule. Marik makes a number of excellent points. It sounds as though you may need to experiment for a while and try out some different styles and techniques before you buy any gear. Any chance you could borrow or try out some different types of mikes and see what works for you, your piano and your room?

Since recording the piano is such a rich and challenging task, it might be an excellent use of your time and money to get a good reference on stereo recording techniques. I highly recommend the third edition of "The New Stereo Soundbook", by Ron Streicher and F. Alton Everest. It is comprehensive but well written and easy for a non-mathematician to follow, with lots of helpful pictures and graphs. Just be aware that Streicher has a bit of a preference for coincident techniques over spaced techniques. A book like that would help guide your experimentation and understanding.

Cheers,

Otto

Cheers,

Otto
 
ofajen said:
Since recording the piano is such a rich and challenging task, it might be an excellent use of your time and money to get a good reference on stereo recording techniques. I highly recommend the third edition of "The New Stereo Soundbook", by Ron Streicher and F. Alton Everest.
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Thank you for the advice, Otto. Indeed, the best strategy would be to wait and experiment before buying. Unfortunately, however, I need a solution ASAP before moving to another country for a year, an exotic place with virtually no resources or audio market (an otherwise beautiful and inspiring place!).

The room I will be recording in has a lot of reverbation due to a stone floor, which I can cover only partially with carpets. There is so much reverbation in there, actually, that it is often hard to distinguish the attack from the sustain of the notes. This makes me believe that cardios should be a better guess?

Also, more specifically, has anyone attempted to record piano with the Oktavas?
 
What about a pair of AKG 414? You'll have to buy used, but if you're lucky, you could stay under your budget. Versatile mics that sound good on everything.
 
macula said:
I wonder why no one mentions the OktavaMod MK-012. Is it overrated? Is it overpriced (around $800 for the pair)?
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Three points - there are many more production mics in use than the number of Oktava MK-012 mics I have modified. So the answers you receive here are going to reflect that user base. Second - an OktavaMod MK-012 MSP6 (two bodies, six capsules - two each cardioid, omni and hypercardioid) is $799, an MSP2 set (two bodies, two capsules only) is $619 and finally, most of my user base seems to use the '012 for drum OH and acoustic guitar work. As you're aware, classical piano recording is a much smaller and specialized field with fewer practitioners.
 
macula said:
The room I will be recording in has a lot of reverbation due to a stone floor, which I can cover only partially with carpets. There is so much reverbation in there, actually, that it is often hard to distinguish the attack from the sustain of the notes. This makes me believe that cardios should be a better guess?
Click to expand...

I would go with the cardioids and be more concerned with treating the room, than purchasing a pair of higher end mics, since they are going to pick up any room anomolies.
 
Hi,
I own a set of 012's, non-mod'ed (athough I plan on getting them done soon). I've only used them on piano a few times, but was generally pleased with the results. I've tried mic'ing inside the piano as well as outside and as has been mentioned earlier, I've found that it's better to mic outside the piano for classical and make sure you have a great instrument in a great space. All that aside, my unmod'ed 012's are a little muddie through the mids but have good low end response(compared to an AKG 451b and an Avantone CK-1 - both very good mics). One of the reasons I want to mod mine are that it is supposed to clean the mids up. If you're looking at a mod'ed pair, you don't even have to worry about this problem. Keep in mind I am not a recording pro who has lots of experience with many different mics. I only know what I own! :)
BTW, I do own a set of the Red LDC capsules for the 012's and just used them to record a performance of Madama Butterfly with full orchestra. I think the recording came out pretty well, especially considering I wasn't able to place my mics in an ideal location. I would definitely try them out (with the LDC capsules) on a piano in the future,
Juan
 
Macula,

Here are two tracks from commercial CDs. Both recorded on the same piano (9' Steinway), in the same beautiful hall, with the same performer.

The first is pair of omnies with Jecklin disk:



The second is MS. It is a straight matrix, the only applied EQ is a -2db shelf from 2KHz, to tame down some harshness of the piano tone:



If you record in the highly reverberant enviroment I am afraid the only sensible solution for you would be very carefully placed MS, so you will be able to get a direct sound of the piano, but also have much flexibility in adjusting the stereo width without introducing too much of the room sound.

I did use modified Oktava 012 mics and found them not very "classical piano friendly". I prefer something much less colored, with more even response and less emphasis on the lows/low mid frequencies.

Regards, M
 
Marik said:
Macula,
Here are two tracks from commercial CDs. Both recorded on the same piano (9' Steinway), in the same beautiful hall, with the same performer.
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Very much appreciated, Marik. Excellent performances, instrument, hall and recordings.

May I ask what mics were used? I really that much more than just good mics is at work here, of course! Yet I can't help wondering.

The problem with MS recording in my case is my relatively low budget: Interface and mics shouldn't cost above $1,500, and under such constraints I doubt I could afford decent interface/pre-amp with more than two inputs.
 
mrbowes said:
What about a pair of AKG 414? You'll have to buy used, but if you're lucky, you could stay under your budget. Versatile mics that sound good on everything.
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What if I started with a single good mic rather than two mediocre ones – for example, a 414B-XLS – hoping that in a year or so I can couple it with a sibling? I know that AKG offer a matching pair but they charge really a lot for the service and for microphones of such quality I wonder whether pairing is really of the essence.
 
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