Best compromise for classic guitar

[Giampy Car]

A friend of mine who is a flamenco player is planning to get his first recording equipement.
He would like to get:
a) mixer with minimun 4 mic input (price max 150€)
b) Pair of SDC or LDC (price max 300€)
Is there any chance to get the best in terms of price and quality within this budget conditions?
He have also listened a pair of Oktava mk012A but he disliked them because the sound not so much present in high frequency. Is there a good alternative to them?
Thanks in advance

 

[scrubs]

a) mixer with minimum 4 mic input (price max 150€)
b) Pair of SDC or LDC (price max 300€)

That will get you acceptable entry-level gear. Is there a reason he wants 4 inputs on the mixer when he is only getting 2 mics? The reason I ask is, you could get a 2-channel preamp that will have much better quality than a 4-channel mixer at that price. Also, for the mics, choice will be very dependent on the guitar and his particular playing style. You should definitely try out the mics before buying.

Here is what I would look into:

Mics:
Studio Projects C4, matched pair ($320 USD) - multiple capsules make these a great buy
MXL 603s, matched pair ($200 USD) - definitely brighter than the Oktava

Shure SM81, single mic ($350 USD) - a standard for guitar recording

You might also consider a multipattern Large Diaphragm condenser, as omni or figure-8 mics often sound great on classical guitar. Check these:

Studio Projects B3 & C3
M-Audio Solaris
CAD M179
Rode NT2

Preamp/Mixer:
M-Audio DMP3 ($160 USD) - great 2-channel preamp for not much money
Yamaha MG series mixer ($100-200 USD) - more channels

 

[chessrock]

He have also listened a pair of Oktava mk012A but he disliked them because the sound not so much present in high frequency. Is there a good alternative to them?

You might tell your "friend" that he might like the Marshall mxl-603. Healthy presence boost; clear, detailed, etc. Nice mics for not much more than pocket change.

 

[Richard Monroe]

It's always a matter of money. MXL603 is probably the best mic for cheap if you don't like the Oktava (I like both, for different things). I think the C-4's are better mics than the 603's. Some ears will prefer Rode NT5's, which are in your pricerange. The next step up is Shure SM81, or a mic you're likely to find at a reasonable price in Europe, AKG451, a well known wicked drum overhead that is underutilized as a guitar mic. I like AKG C2000B, but not on nylon strings. -Richie

 

[xstatic]

I love my AKG 451's on acoustics. I like both my originals and the reissues

 

[Giampy Car]

May be AKG 451 is a little bit ouside the budget
Phereaps the best compromise is Mxl603, very low cost and good performancies and something like soundcraft or mackie instead of yamaha.
Personally i like the sound of the ocktava but as the old latin says "de gustibus non disputandum est" it's just matter of own feeling.
To get something more i will tell him to take SP C4 instead of Marshall.
Thanks

 

[XLR]

In the price ranges you've mentioned, a 603s mic pair and Mackie mixer could work well. The 603s is a pretty bright but can still be usefull on flamenco guitar with carefull placement.

Unless the recording's done in a large room that compliments the guitar and allows distant mic placement, another thing I'd recommend as essential is an RNC compressor (the Really Nice Compressor from FMR). It can sound very transparent in its "supernice" mode, so doesn't squeeze the natural guitar sound out of shape. The differences in level between rasgueado and other passages in flamenco guitar can be drastic. Even at 24 bits, unless someone who knows the music is expertly riding the faders on the mixer the levels may be too hot in the loud passages and too low in the less intense ones. And it gets worse if there are dancers, etc., with the percussive nature of the music. The RNC makes it pretty easy and it sounds better than tweaking the dynamics w/software after recording. Also great for live sound use for flamenco guitar.

Tim

 

[tdukex]

I'm another fan of the 603s and have used it on classical guit with success--not on flamenco, though. I also like the DMP3 better than the cheap mixers I have heard and agree with TL that the RNC would be a great investment for that type of dynamic music.

 

[Giampy Car]

What about mic placement? I've done some tests using different mics but same mic placement. In one of the technical handbook from Shure i've seen this kind of placement:
1. First mic direct on the 14 freats at 40-50 cm
2. Second mic used like overheads, at the same distance of the first, but 90° to the previous.
Is this the right placement or not? What you should suggest in this case? I've read in your posts above " distant mic placement". What does it mean?
Sorry for my lot of questions.

p.s. I don't now how to share some audio sample in this forum. I will be very happy to give you the possibility to listen what was my experience.
Regards

 

[scrubs]

What about mic placement? I've done some tests using different mics but same mic placement. In one of the technical handbook from Shure i've seen this kind of placement:
1. First mic direct on the 14 freats at 40-50 cm
2. Second mic used like overheads, at the same distance of the first, but 90° to the previous.
Is this the right placement or not? What you should suggest in this case? I've read in your posts above " distant mic placement". What does it mean?
Sorry for my lot of questions.

p.s. I don't now how to share some audio sample in this forum. I will be very happy to give you the possibility to listen what was my experience.
Regards

For 2-mic techniques, these are three surefire methods. You will have to tweak the placement of each mic slightly to find that perfect spot, but this will get you started:

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html

 

[XLR]

Hi Giampi,

About mic placement, every guitarist, instrument and room are different so you have to experiment. Small differences in placement and angle can change the sound drastically. By distant placement I meant 6 ft or so but you really need a very large, good sounding room for that.

IME Classical and flamenco guitar when played strongly have a certain distance away where the where the sound gels and where a mic will hear the complete sound of the instrument. The guitar projects different tone colors from it's different parts so the closer the mic's get, the more they hear only part of the instrument's total color.

The dilemma, though, is that most of us record in small rooms in our homes. And small rooms tend to emphasize frequencies unevenly and can cause harsh high frequency reflections, so the mic's need to be closer to minimize that. You can get a beautiful sound with closer placement, but it'll be different.

When you're experimenting with placement in a small room, a good starting point for a single mic is 2 ft out from the mid-point between the bridge and soundhole. If you want a more complex sound, try two mic's, 2 ft out, one in front of the bridge and other at the 12th fret. Pan them hard L and R if you're using a mixer, and record each to a separate track.

In a large room a good starting point is 6 feet out from the soundboard in one of the classic stereo configurations such as ORTF or XY for cardioid mic's, or a spaced pair for omnis.

And get that RNC. If your friend is recording himself the RNC will control his levels really tastefully and let him concentrate on the music. I think they're still under 200 USD, and even with a few extra $ for shipping to Italy, it's probably the best bargain of any recording gear.

Just my 2c. YMMV.

Tim

 

[Freudian Slip]

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the 3035.
I have had good luck with the At-3035 on accoustic. never tried on classical though. Pretty accurate mic though. Does a great job on vocals for me too. $200.00 a piece. not sure how that translated to euro's or pounds.....


F.S.